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Buzzardhut
August 5th, 2007, 11:49 AM
One of the most prominent and growing movements today is the "Emerging/Emerged/Emergent Church". They claim they are still rising up and their doctrines have not solidified, some claim they do not have any fundamental doctrines but their aim is apparent. These Emerging Christians" seek to deconstruct and reconstruct Christian beliefs, standards, and methods of the church to accommodate the postmodern culture. Proponents of this movement call this "conversation" to emphasize its developing and decentralized nature. The predominantly young participants in this movement prefer narrative presentations drawn from their own experiences and biblical narratives over propositional, biblical exposition.
Emergent methodology includes frequent use of new technologies such as multimedia and the Internet. Emergents communicate in open dialogue rather than the dogmatic proclamation found in historic Christianity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_Church

Some Emergents have differing emphases, depending upon the particular author or institution. Much of the Emerging or Emergent Church meld with typical postmodern rationalizations of men in regarding relativism - any lack of standards of truth from scripture.
One common theme is their concern with today’s churches losing touch and remaining relevant with the modern culture. Emphasis is on the "need" to reformat the church and Christianity towards the greater good of building better inroads and relationships with the post modern culture.

2 Main Types of Emergents will be studied here:

The Revisionist Deconstructionists
1. The Revisionist - 'Updates' theology back to the liturgical Dark Ages before the Reformation
2. The Deconstructionist - 'Updates' theology and worship styles back to the Dark Ages of Mystery Babylon with Ecumenism, mystical chants, Labyrinths, etc....

Contemporary Worship is welcomed and necessary.

Born-again believers with liberty in Jesus Christ worship in spirit and truth, scriptural and doctrinally sound when it comes to praise and worship and Gospel teaching and exposition of the Word.

False doctrine is not welcomed and no one should hide behind heresy and claim s/he is just upgrading the program.

The Revisionists and Deconstructionists, is of Satan and many denominations have been applying this subtle change for years under everyone's noses.

The Emergent Revisionists and Deconstructionists are the enemies of God’s true salvation message.

The Revisionists and Deconstructionists in the Emergent Church Movement believe in:

1. No Absolutes.
2. No stable rules to follow.
3. A subjective free for all.
4. Gods Word is just a fairy tale open for any Judas to interpret.
5. There is no exegesis - drawing true meaning out of scripture,
6. only eisegesis - reading into the scriptures anything you want it to say and not what God meant.

The Emergent Movement is a movement away from the Word of God and a movement towards the Ecumenical religion of Rome and Universalism.

God says His Word is True, but when declared, Emergents reply;
“Did God really say that?”
“Isn’t that just your interpretation of what you think God meant?”
“That is just your personal opinion.”

That was the same line of thought Satan presented to Eve in the garden "Did God really say that?" (Emergents will tell you this story is a fairy tale.)

Emergents think in this way of no absolutes because they do not believe Gods Word and cannot understand how anyone could be gullible or naive enough to believe it.

They are of the same mindset as Pontius Pilot in John 18:37-38; who asked Jesus "What is Truth?" meaning 'your interpretation of truth can be different than my own'.

They do not admit they believe Gods Word is not true, they just say no one has the ability to determine it.

This leaves a vacuum to be filled with evolution, DaVinci codes, Gnosticism, existentialism, Azuza revivals, Emergence movements, and other subjective extra-biblical acts taught right along side God’s Word.

Scripture tells us “the heart of man is wicked” and it is best to never rely upon it for the wisdom of God.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?

We should allow the scriptures to examine ourselves within, the scriptures examine us, the Emergents declare authority over scripture and turn to soulish attempts outside the bounds of scripture for spiritual self-examinations.
Examining the inner man within yourself by your self is Eastern Mysticism and Gnosticism.

Since Satan cannot remove Gods Word, which will stand forever, he tries to discredit it and discredit any person who declares it.

His goal is to neuter II Timothy 3:16-17 'Every part of Scripture is God-breathed and useful one way or another--showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes, training us to live God's way'.

Since the Emergents claim there is no ability to determine the correct truth of canon rule of scripture, they are free to declare:
• there is no hell,
• no literal creation,
• no proper form of worship,
• no Bible foundation to stand upon.
• A man can marry another man if he feels like doing it.
• All roads lead to heaven.
• All religions and religious books speak of the same god.
Man is free to do whatever he thinks is ok (Anarchy): Judges 17:6 and Judges 21:25

These ideologies begin by disillusioned seminary professors who pass their unbelief in scripture through a rigid higher criticism down to their students who infect this poison into churches and entire denominations.
They resort to this process because they are avoiding accountability to God’s Word.
It is a falling away from evangelicalism (last days apostasy) and falling unto Ecumenism and the One World Church.

Evangelists influence the culture with the true Gospel.
That is the Great Commission.
The wrong strategy is altering the Gospel with a watered down version to fit the culture.
It's good to desire more contemporary worship for the culture.
The Revisionists and Deconstructionists want to turn the church back into the Dark Ages of mystical Gnosticism.

They approach the Scriptures as Myth claiming there is no Literal Creation as described in Scripture, no Original Sin, and no need for atonement because there is no Hell.

To them, Christianity is just another religion of the world like Islam.

The Post-modernism of the Emergent movement is dissolution of "cold, hard facts" in favor of "warm, fuzzy subjectivity."

The Emergent church movement falls into line with basic post-modernist thinking--it is about experience over reason, subjectivity over objectivity, world religions and Churchianity over true Christianity, images over words, the inward intent as apposed to the outcome.

There are reactions to modernism, and are thought to be necessary in order to actively engage contemporary culture, and there is not yet a standard method of "doing" church amongst the groups choosing to take this post-modern mindset, so there is a huge range of how far these groups take a post-modernist approach to Christianity.

Some groups go only a little way in order to impact their community for Christ, and remain biblically sound. Most groups, however, embrace post-modernist thinking, which, eventually, leads to a very liberal, loose translation of the Bible. This, in turn, lends to liberal doctrine and theology.

Experience is valued more highly than reason, truth becomes relative.

Relativity opens up all kinds of problems, as it destroys the standard that the Bible contains absolute truth, negating the belief that biblical truth is absolute.

If the Bible is not our source for absolute truth, and personal experience is allowed to define and interpret what truth actually is, a saving faith in Jesus Christ is rendered meaningless and just one of many ways to approaching God.

Another area where the Emergent church movement has become anti-biblical is its focus on Ecumenism. Unity among people coming from different religious and ethnic backgrounds, and diversity in the expression of corporate worship is a strong focus of the emergent church movement.

Being Ecumenical means compromise is taking place, and results in a watering down of scripture in favor of not offending an apostate or pagan.

This is in direct opposition to passages such as Revelation 2:14-17, Jesus' letter to the church of Pergamum, in which the Church is warned against tolerating those who teach false doctrines.

False doctrine seems to abound greatly within the Emergent church movement.
Emergents allow for a plurality of Scriptural interpretations.
They challenge to re-think, re-analyze, re-interpret, and rewrite the Gospel and scripture interpretations to many possible relative meanings and applications. Biblical truths become vague, and almost scorned, replaced by universalistic and syncretistic themes that resemble mystical concepts, subtly and overtly.

Proponents of the movement advocate a subjective view of doctrine in which they embrace a continual reexamination of and flexible approach to theology which causes them to see the faiths of all religions as a journey rather than a destination. Emergents claim to "hold in tension" even radical differences in doctrines and morals. Emergents see theology as an icon pointing to God rather than as a definition of God, they do not see any doctrinal expositions as definitive.

Their universalistic concepts of "salvation" (that all the sincere find heaven) are usually regarded as "finding the god within you," (Panentheism) and god is in everything (Pantheism) . Evangelistic church missions are regarded as a waste of time, and church believers in ages past, who died for their faith in Jesus Christ, are regarded as unnecessary zealots.
The Emergent worship focuses on Centering Prayer as a method of prayer, which prepares them to receive the gift of God's presence. Centering Prayer is drawn from ancient prayer practices of the Christian contemplative heritage, notably the Fathers and Mothers of the Desert, Lectio Divina, (praying the scriptures), The Cloud of Unknowing, St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila. It was distilled into a simple method of prayer in the 1970’s by three Trappist monks, Fr. William Meninger, Fr. Basil Pennington and Abbot Thomas Keating at the Trappist Abbey, St. Joseph’s Abbey in Spencer, Massachusetts” (www.contemplativeoutreach.org)

The Cloud of Unknowing is an anonymous 14th century book presenting contemplative meditation as a spiritual process enabling the ordinary person to enter and receive a direct experience of union with God. This form of meditation, recently known as 'Centering Prayer' (from a text of Thomas Merton), says to be traced from and through the earliest centuries of mystical Christianity. The Centering Prayer centers one on the god within each individual. http://www.letusreason.org/current74.htm

During a conference on contemplative prayer, Thomas Merton was asked: “How can we best help people to attain union with God?" His answer was very clear: "We must tell them that they are already united with God." Contemplative prayer is nothing other than coming into consciousness of what is already there. (A Time of Departing by Ray Yungen, p. 80).
Did Jesus or the apostles ever instruct us to pray this way? If not where did it come from? They call it alternative worship. Those involved in the Emerging church make use of liturgies, prayer beads, icons, chants and practices from Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, the Anglicans and Eastern religious practices. They see this as a return to the Ancient Faith that will give them a richer spiritual experience through practicing sacramental rituals. By making it their own experience many see this as privatization of their faith.

Their worship does not just involve old stylistic candles, crosses, and incense. They make use of multimedia- music, video projection screens, vivid fluorescent black lights etc. to bring one into a multi-sensory experience with “the divine.” They walk the labyrinth in the darkness lit by candles and have the fragrance of incense permeate the air as they stop and chant Christian words or Contemplative thoughts and prayers. It becomes a personal spiritual experience as each one enters into their own spiritual space.

“There is a movement in youth ministry that is taking us back to what some would call ancient spiritual practices, or different contemplative tools.” (Mark Oestreicher, President Youth Specialties)
Although some Emergent thinkers such as Brian McLaren, and many Evangelical scholars such as D. A. Carson use "emerging" and "emergent" as synonyms, a large number of participants in the emerging church movement maintain a distinction between them. "Emergent" is sometimes more closely associated with Emergent Village. Those participants in the movement who assert this distinction believe "emergents" and "emergent village" to be a part of the emerging church movement but prefer to use the term "emerging church" to refer to the movement as a whole while using the term "emergent" in a more limited way, referring to Brian McLaren and emergent village.

Many of those within the emerging church movement who do not closely identify with emergent village tend to avoid that organization's interest in radical theological reformulation and focus more on new ways of "doing church" and expressing their spirituality. Mark Driscoll, an early leader associated with the emerging church conversation, now distances himself from the "emergent thread."
Individuals questioning Emergent modern teachings are labeled as "misunderstanding", "judgmental," or "divisive."
The Emergent movement is a symptom, not a cure.

Emergents reveal how society chooses religion over a true personal conversion salvation through Jesus Christ.
Man is religious in nature and must worship something.
Rejection of worshiping Jesus in Truth will turn to worshiping the next best alternative, personal subjective reasoning.

Jesus discussed this with the Woman at the Well and Jesus also said few find the true road to heaven and most church members today are on the pathway to destruction.
They are either victims of the quick and easy seeker models or liturgical rituals.

Worship will always involve the senses.
But it is futile to Worship God without a regenerated spirit.
God does not accept a worship that rejects His Blood sacrifice. (see Cain & Abel in Genesis)

Study Matthew 7:15-20, "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

No one should disagree about using something new as long as
it filters through the scriptures and passes through as acceptable unto God.

Seeking new ways to witnessing to a changing culture is admirable.
Utilizing ways which compromise the Truth of the Gospel in any way is nothing more than a promotion of false doctrine and leading others away from Jesus Christ instead of to Him.

The present goals of today’s Church should be:
• Understanding and application of Gods literal Truth of the Scriptures.
• Presenting the Historical and factual Truth and Purpose of the real Jesus Christ in His virgin birth, Death on the Cross for atonement, and literal actual Resurrection for Eternal Life.
• Challenging others to reject their path to Hell and choosing salvation through the historical Jesus Christ to cover all sin for spiritual regeneration.
• Baptize and equip the regenerate to repeat the above.
A more valid question should be asked: “How do we declare the above to a western culture immersed in:
• A cultural mix of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s
• Political Correctiveness
• Nature (gender, evolution, etc) over Scripture
• Relative Truth over Bible Truth
• Individuality Vs. Spiritual Authority
• Mass Media & Entertainment Vs. Personal Discipleship
• Steeped in fast paced12hr workdays 6 days a week trying to raise a family Vs. church attendance.

It is the real and historical Jesus that saves us
The Word of God reveals this historical Jesus to us.
It is the Word of God that produces Faith.
It is the Word of God that corrects us.
It is the Word of God that instructs us.
The Word of God should be primary, not secondary.
Props and multimedia illustration aids can be used to help explain God's Word but should not be the chief result in and of themselves.

Preaching & Teaching from Gods Word is essential.
And the believer has the Holy Spirit within him guiding him to proper worship.

The up and coming standard is the One World Church
The Emergent movement is a morphing entity preparing this planet for the one world church.
There are specific warning signs that are symptomatic that your church may be headed down the Emergent/Contemplative road.

In some cases a pastor may not be aware that he is on this road nor understand where the road ends up:
• Scripture is no longer the ultimate authority as the basis for the Christian faith.
• The centrality of the gospel of Jesus Christ is being replaced by humanistic methods promoting church growth and a social gospel.
• More and more emphasis is being placed on building the kingdom of God now and less and less on the warnings of Scripture about the imminent return of Jesus Christ and a coming judgment in the future.
• The teaching that Jesus Christ will rule and reign in a literal millennial period is considered unbiblical and heretical.
• The teaching that the church has taken the place of Israel and Israel has no prophetic significance is often embraced.
• The teaching that the Book of Revelation does not refer to the future, but instead has been already fulfilled in the past
• An experiential mystical form of Christianity begins to be promoted as a method to reach the postmodern generation.
• Ideas are promoted teaching that Christianity needs to be reinvented in order to provide meaning for this generation.
• The pastor may implement an idea called “ancient-future” or “vintage Christianity” claiming that in order to take the church forward, we need to go back in church history (before the Reformation) and find out what experiences were effective to get people to embrace Christianity.
• While the authority of the Word of God is undermined, images and sensual experiences are promoted as the key to experiencing and knowing God.
• These experiences include icons, candles, incense, liturgy, labyrinths, prayer stations, black lighting, contemplative prayer, experiencing the sacraments, particularly the sacrament of the Eucharist.
• There seems to be a strong emphasis on ecumenism indicating that a bridge is being established that leads in the direction of unity with the Roman Catholic Church.
• Some evangelical Protestant leaders are saying that the Reformation went too far. They are reexamining the claims of the “church fathers” saying that communion is more than a symbol and that Jesus actually becomes present in the wafer at communion.
• There will be a growing trend towards an ecumenical unity for the cause of world peace claiming the validity of other religions and that there are many ways to God.
• Members of churches who question or resist the new changes that the pastor is implementing are reprimanded and usually asked to leave.

http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c54_pf.shtml

[YOU TUBE VIDEO]G13HDyrWtEI[/YOU TUBE VIDEO]
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c5/buzzardhut/Emergent.jpg

Stinker
August 5th, 2007, 12:14 PM
Can you give us some names to look out for from this movement? Its leaders.

So when we hear them, we can take notice.

TY

Buzzardhut
August 5th, 2007, 12:24 PM
Can you give us some names to look out for from this movement? Its leaders.

So when we hear them, we can take notice.

TY
Emergent Leaders (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/emergingchurchquotes.htm)

"The church has been preoccupied with the question, "What happens to your soul after you die?" As if the reason for Jesus coming can be summed up in, "Jesus is trying to help get more souls into heaven, as opposed to hell, after they die." I just think a fair reading of the Gospels blows that out of the water. I don't think that the entire message and life of Jesus can be boiled down to that bottom line." —Brian McLaren, from the PBS special on the Emerging Church

"Emergent doesn't have a position on absolute truth, or on anything for that matter. Do you show up at a dinner party with your neighbors and ask, 'What's this dinner party's position on absolute truth?' No, you don't, because it's a non-sensical question." Tony Jones at the 2005 National Youth Workers Convention

"Meditative prayer like that we experienced in the labyrinth resonates with hearts of emerging generations."—Dan Kimball, Vintage Faith

"My goal is to destroy Christianity as a world religion and be a recatalyst for the movement of Jesus Christ," McManus, author of a new book called The Barbarian Way, said in a telephone interview. "Some people are upset with me because it sounds like I'm anti-Christian. I think they might be right."—Erwin McManus, from The Barbarian Way

"Many Christians use "Breath Prayers" throughout their day. You choose a brief sentence, or a simple phrase that can be repeated to Jesus in one breath." —Rick Warren

"The fact is that contemplative spirituality will play a huge part in the Church of the future, and candles are just the beginning." Duane Cottrell

"He [Brian McLaren] cites Dallas Willard and Richard Foster, with their emphasis on spiritual disciplines, as key mentors for the emerging church."—The Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today, 11/04

"[W]e should stop to reflect and to treasure the words, to turn them over and over in our minds, repeating them ..."—Richard Foster, Renovare

"Some of the values of the emerging church are an emphasis on emotions, global outlook, a rise in the use of arts, and a rise in mysticism and spirituality."—Josh Reich
Creating Worship Gatherings for the Emerging Church


"Church Should Be Like a Dance Club" —Josh Reich
Creating Worship Gatherings for the Emerging Church

"I stopped reading from the approved evangelical reading list and began to distance myself from the evangelical agenda. I discovered new authors and new voices at the bookstore-Thomas Merton, Henri Nouwen and St. Teresa of Avila. The more I read, the more intrigued I became. Contemplative spirituality seemed to open up a whole new way for me to understand and experience God. I was deeply moved by works like The Cloud of Unknowing, The Dark Night of the Soul and the Early Writings of the Desert Fathers." —Spencer Burke, The Ooze

Brian McLaren's New Book (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/brianmclaren.htm), The Secret Message of Jesus
by Berit Kjos
Who Defines the Kingdom of God?

Where is the Kingdom of God? How inclusive is it? Who defines the terms? Today's emerging church has already moved the boundaries of His Kingdom. It has redefined God's Word and is fast embracing the latest versions of the old Gnostic quest for secret knowledge (gnosis) and self-actualization, whether through mystical experience or collective imagination.



Stamping out faith in Biblical absolutes is central to this transformation. A mind anchored in God's Word won't compromise, but when that anchor is removed, the current of change can carry that mind anywhere. As Jesuit scholastic, Mark Mossa, wrote in his endorsement of Brian McLaren's latest book: "The Secret Message of Jesus challenges us to put aside our sterile certainties about Christ and reconsider the imaginative world of Jesus stories, signs and wonders."

"We're rediscovering Christianity as an Eastern religion (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/robbell.htm), as a way of life."—Rob Bell, Teaching Pastor Mars Hill Bible Church from The Emergent Mystique, CT

"He [Bell]described breath as a form of prayer and urged people to relax and "breathe out" all of their anger and stress from the past week."
—David Crumm, Getting to the root of religion

Listen to Rob Bell on Breath Prayers, et. al.
(Access to this file has been removed.)

Will the Next Billy Graham Be a Mystic?
In a recent Chicago Sun-Times article, the headline reads, "The Next Billy Graham?" At first glance, someone like Rick Warren or Luis Palau (both of whom have been mentioned to take the place of Graham), might come to mind. But neither of those names was mentioned in the article. Instead, a popular emerging church leader, Rob Bell, was named as the possible replacement. While that may seem like a far-fetched notion to many, the article quotes emerging leader Brian McLaren as saying it "could very well be true."

Rob Bell, a graduate of Wheaton College (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/billygraham.htm) (the same as Billy Graham), is the producer for short films called Noomas. His newest film, called "Breathe," is currently in production:

"Each day we take around 26,000 breaths," Bell begins ... "Our breathing should come from our stomach, not our chest."

Doesn't sound like anything to be too alarmed about, right? Breathing ... we all do it to survive. But it may be time to take a serious look at Rob Bell's spirituality, especially in light of some seeing him as the next Billy Graham.

In a 2004 Christianity Today article titled Emergent Mystique, Bell (pastor of Mars Hill of Michigan) said, "We're rediscovering Christianity as an Eastern religion, as a way of life." What does Bell mean by "an Eastern religion"? It sounds a lot like Thomas Merton who, while he considered himself a Christian, said he was impregnated with Sufism (Islamic mysticism). As with most emergent and contemplative leaders, the Christianity of the Bible is not enough for them, and there is one main reason it isn't ... meditation. Since the Bible lacks any instruction on a self- induced mystical trance, other than condemning it in the Old Testament, contemplatives must turn to Eastern religious techniques adopted by Catholic mystics such as Thomas Merton or Basil Pennington, who have grasped onto Hindu style meditation or latched onto New Age mystics. You may think this is an outlandish statement, but on March 19th 2006, Bell did just that. He invited a Dominican sister from the Dominican Center (a 3 minute audio) at Marywood in Michigan to speak at a church service at Mars Hill. The Dominican Center is a "Spirituality center," which offers a wide variety of contemplative opportunities, including Reiki, a Spiritual Formation program, a Spiritual Director program, labyrinths, Celtic Spirituality, enneagrams1 and much more.

For those who may not be familiar with Reiki, it is important to understand that the very word has a connotation that resonates with the idea of a spirit guide. In Japan, the word Reiki is the standard term for the occult (or ghost energy). In the Everything Reiki book, one Reiki master divulged:

During the Reiki attunement process, the avenue that is opened within the body to allow Reiki to flow through also opens up the psychic communication centers. This is why many Reiki practitioners report having verbalized channeled communications with the spirit world. (A Time of Departing, p.97)

Many in Wicca also have embraced Reiki.

If Rob Bell draws on a spiritual source that includes Reiki, the path ahead for Christianity could be very perilous. While it is unlikely that Rob Bell will become the next Billy Graham, if he or another contemplative/emerging leader were to gain the momentum and reputation that Billy Graham enjoyed for so many years, then contemplative spirituality would make greater inroads into Christendom than any could imagine. Can you picture a stadium filled with sixty thousand people, all meditating and chanting together, all going into the silence together, all being told that they already have divinity, they just have to realize that they too are Christ. It may seem like an improbable scenario to some, but to those who understand the huge implications of contemplative spirituality, its one that isn't too far down the road. Instead of singing "Just as I am" as people file to the front of the platform, they will be chanting the suggested words of Brennan Manning's guide, Beatrice Bruteau, I AM, I AM.

Youth For Christ Teams Up With Youth Specialties and Contemplative Spirituality (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/newslettermarch06.htm#article12)

This summer, in two locations (DC and LA), a Youth Specialties and Youth For Christ hosted event will take place - DCLA.

The event is geared for middle high and high school students and will allow students to "experience intimate worship, relevant training, and interaction with thousands of other students that will lead to life-changing impact."

Just how will this "life-changing impact" happen? To begin with, "training" will include the use of a labyrinth.

Speakers for the events include Youth Specialties President, Mark Oestreicher, and Doug Fields, Youth Pastor of Saddleback Church.

Youth Specialties: Promoting Mysticism and Interspirituality (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/youthspecialties.htm)

Youth Specialties President: "Christianity is an eastern religion."
Youth Specialties President
Mark Oestreicher (Marko) Comments:

On Yoga:
"[Y]oga is really just about stretching and slowing down. Sure, yoga, I suppose, could focus on Hindi or Buddhist gods or something - but it can also focus on Christ. We received a couple stomping-mad complaints about the yoga at the National Pastors Convention, saying 'putting your body in those positions invites Hindi gods to enter your body.' I'm sorry - this just sounds like heresy to me. If we don't believe Hindi gods actually exist, then why are we concerned about them entering our bodies?"—A response to the charge that YS is embracing eastern religion by Mark Oestreicher

On Eastern Religion:
"Christianity IS an eastern religion. It has all its roots in the East! It's a bit baffling to me that people lose sight of this, and insist on creating a false separation between eastern religions and (apparently) western Christianity.—A response to the charge that YS is embracing eastern religion by Mark Oestreicher

On ContemplativePrayer:
"If a Buddhist is using a breathing exercise to bring some peace to her life, well, bless her. But that should have no bearing on whether or not I choose to focus on my God-created breath."—A response to the charge that YS is embracing eastern religion by Mark Oestreicher

"On saying words over and over again: well that sure is taken out of context. It's not like we would suggest someone grab any word ('Tree!' 'Towel!' 'Beer!') and chant it over and over again-which is her implication. There is a wonderful spiritual practice, however, of repeating a phrase from the Bible and seeing what God reveals to you about it (or about Him, or about you). It's prayer: not a chant.—A response to the charge that YS is embracing eastern religion by Mark Oestreicher

Buzzardhut
August 5th, 2007, 12:33 PM
Erwin McManus (http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/07/erwin_mcmanusa_1.html) has made it crystal clear that he hates Christianity. This is very well documented. He has said, “The greatest enemy of the movement of Jesus Christ is Christianity,” and “My goal is to destroy Christianity as a world religion and be a recatalyst for the movement of Jesus Christ”... There are many who claim to be Christians but show no evidence of Christ being their Lord... We should hate that kind of “Christianity”...

But that’s not the kind of Christianity Erwin McManus is talking about. No, he’s talking about biblical Christianity. He’s talking about the Christianity of the Gospels, the Christianity of the Apostles, the Christianity that triumphed in the Reformation when certain godly men stood up for truth against Roman Catholic heresy. When Erwin says he wants to destroy Christianity, he is speaking of the Church of Jesus Christ that exalts God’s glory in justification by faith alone to the glory of God alone. Simply put, Erwin wants to destroy Truth. Now, let’s see how.

By Ron Foster
Apprising Ministries Correspondent

Part 1: Ditching Discipleship for the Doctrines of Demons

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons” – 1 Tim 4:1

“My goal is to destroy Christianity” – Erwin McManus.

Erwin McManus has made it crystal clear that he hates Christianity. This is very well documented. He has said, “The greatest enemy of the movement of Jesus Christ is Christianity,” and “My goal is to destroy Christianity as a world religion and be a recatalyst for the movement of Jesus Christ.” [1] Now before you argue that I am taking his words out of context, understand that I am fully aware of forms of “Christianity” that every true Christian should hate, forms that aren’t Christian at all. There are many who claim to be Christians but show no evidence of Christ being their Lord. And there are many churches that do the same. We should hate that kind of “Christianity,” which isn’t really Christianity at all.

But that’s not the kind of Christianity Erwin McManus is talking about. No, he’s talking about biblical Christianity. He’s talking about the Christianity of the Gospels, the Christianity of the Apostles, the Christianity that triumphed in the Reformation when certain godly men stood up for truth against Roman Catholic heresy. When Erwin says he wants to destroy Christianity, he is speaking of the Church of Jesus Christ that exalts God’s glory in justification by faith alone to the glory of God alone. Simply put, Erwin wants to destroy Truth. Now, let’s see how.

“Teaching Doctrine Isn’t Biblical”

Erwin doesn’t believe in teaching doctrine. This year at the Southern Baptist Convention General Meeting, he said:

The practice of opening up the Bible and preaching verse-by-verse every Sunday and teaching doctrines that those who come already believe, and somehow think that that will transform society, you can’t find it in [the Bible].” [2]

Teaching doctrine isn’t biblical? Well, what about Titus 1:9: “He [an overseer] must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it”? What about Titus 2:1: “But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine”? In these verses, the Greek noun didache/e can be translated as “doctrine” or “teaching,” (see 2 Tim 4:2-3: “preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching (didachee). For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching (didaskalias: a form of didache). So Erwin stands opposed to the Bible itself in saying that teaching doctrine is not biblical.

Erwin is right in line with many Emerging leaders who want to create a new generation of Christians who are divorced from doctrine. Erwin said in a Willow Creek video clip, “Christians love to get more and more information about God so they can know more and more without having to actually do anything about it.” [3] That’s his take on discipleship. He’s saying that conversion inherently brings all the “information” you need to know about doctrine, and all God is calling for now is action. By the way, that word “information” Erwin is throwing around is his substitute word for biblical knowledge. (We’ll come back to that in a minute.)

“Don’t Disciple Believers, Only Unbelievers”

Erwin said in an interview with The Baptist Standard, “My job isn’t to feed the Christians, so they can feed the sheep. My job is to make them hungry so they can feed themselves.” [4] But didn’t Jesus command His undershepherds, beginning with Peter, to “Feed my sheep” (John 21:17)? Isn’t that the model for all pastors (Acts 20:28-32; 1 Tim 4:11-16; 2 Tim 4:1-2; Titus 2:1)? In an interview on the Drew Marshall Show, Erwin conveniently excused himself from this high responsibility as a pastor by saying he doesn’t consider himself a pastor. [5] Why then does his own website say that he, “serves as the lead pastor…of Mosaic?” Maybe because Erwin really does know the role and responsibilities of a pastor, he just doesn’t want to obey?

Erwin goes on to say, “The church isn’t here for us. We are the church and we’re here for the world.” [6] Yes, that is a very well-known mantra at Mosaic, one I’m sure Erwin is very proud of. It’s so altruistic. But is it biblical? Well, it is, partially. And that pretty much sums up the entire Emergent movement – biblical, partially. Yes, we are the Church and we are here for the world. But the Church is also here for us, or rather, we the Church are here for one other. The early believers “devoted themselves to the Apostles teachings and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and prayer” (Acts 2:42) Galatians 6:10 says, “Let us do good to everyone, especially to those who are of the household of faith.” Paul did command acts of kindness toward unbelievers here, but he placed special emphasis on doing good to other believers. Jesus Himself said that it is by our mutual Christian love for one another that the world will know we belong to Him (John 13:35).

So Erwin doesn’t disciple believers. He says that according to Scripture, discipleship was never meant to be focused on believers but unbelievers. And he uses the Great Commission to support this position: “make disciples of all nations,” i.e. unbelievers.

What Does the Bible Say About Discipleship?

Now Jesus did indeed command His Apostles to evangelize the nations, but He added, “teaching them to observe all I have commanded you.” (By the way, the word “teaching” there is the Greek word didaskontes, the active participle form of, yes, you guessed it: didache.) The phrase “make disciples” in Jesus’s command is actually an active verb that literally renders the phrase as “teach the nations.” “Baptizing” and “teaching” are participles incorporated into that command to teach the nations, or “make disciples.” In other words, making disciples is not merely making converts, but also baptizing and teaching them AFTER they become believers. Paul wrote, “Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ” (Col 1:28) The word “mature” is the Greek word teleion, which is also used in James 1:4 to refer to being made “perfect” or “whole” (in that case through trials). Christian maturity does not automatically happen at rebirth. Therefore teaching and discipleship must continue on to Christian maturity. Paul labored to that end and Christian ministers are called to do the same.

So what is (biblical) discipleship all about? In John 8:31-32, Jesus said, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” Abiding, or remaining in the word of Jesus is indicative of true discipleship. That word “abide, ”in Greek, signifies ongoing action – “keep on abiding.” Jesus was speaking to a group of Jews who believed Him but were not fully committed to Him. He was saying that it isn’t enough to just believe. You have to remain in His word to be His disciples. As we continue to do this, we will come to know the truth.

Discipleship also calls for “intelligent worship.” Now when I use the word “intelligent,” I am not referring to human intellect but to revealed knowledge. The reason I use the word “intelligent” is to separate Christian worship from this notion of mystical worship that some are so fond of. Jesus tells the woman at the well, “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24) and the psalmist tells us, “The sum of Your word is truth” (Ps. 119:160) Worshiping God requires knowing the truth He has revealed from His word.

Discipleship calls for loving one another in the body of Christ. I already addressed this previously in this article, but here are a few more references: Romans 12:10 says, “Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.” 1 Th 3:12 says, “May the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you.” Heb 13:1 says, “Let brotherly love continue.” 1 Pet 3:8 says, “Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.” 1 Pet 4:8 says, “Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.” And 1 John 2:10 says, “Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling.” And there are many, many more.

Discipleship calls for preserving and defending the faith, i.e. doctrinal truth. Paul reminds Timothy that the Church of Jesus Christ has the utmost responsibility and privilege to be the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15), and Jude likewise warns Christians in his epistle to “contend earnestly for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). Being Christ’s disciple is a high call to preserve and fight (contend) for that truth.

Discipleship calls for “intelligent evangelism.” Again, the Great Commission commands us to make “teach the nations.” Teach them what? Truth! As I said earlier, worshiping God requires knowing the truth He has revealed from His word. That is why evangelism is so crucial. Romans 10:17 says, “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.” Faith comes through hearing the word of Christ being proclaimed because Christ’s word brings knowledge of the truth which leads to pure worship of God. God’s ultimate end in all He does is the glorification of His great name, and only intelligent evangelism, proclamation based on knowledge of the truth He has revealed, can lead people into God-exalting worship.

Departing from Biblical Doctrine and Discipleship

Now here’s my question. Why would Erwin McManus hold such an unbiblical position about discipleship when the Bible is clearly for Christian discipleship and/by doctrinal teaching? Let’s answer that question by putting some pieces together.

1. Erwin is against teaching doctrine.
2. Erwin is against discipling Christians (including, I assume, even one-minute old Christians, brand new believers who just received Christ). “Doctrine is inherent in salvation, so “turn ‘em loose.”

Now, let’s do some “math.” According to Erwin:

Don’t teach doctrine (if that looks redundant to you by now, I’m elated) + Don’t disciple believers
= Don’t obey the entire Great Commission = Don’t follow Paul’s example in Col 1:28 = Don’t make biblical Christians (sound contradictory? That’s because it is!)

Can’t Erwin see that this equation spells disaster? Here’s what I think. Discipleship of some sort is going to take place no matter what, right? Erwin knows that whoever leads a person to Christ does, in fact, disciple them. He can call it by another name – “investing in,” “unleashing your God-given potential,” etc. – but it’s still discipleship. And the convenient thing about changing the terminology (from “discipling” to “investing,” for instance) is that you don’t have to do it the prescribed way (biblically prescribed, that is). But hear this. Some form of doctrine will be taught and learned. In a teacher-student, mentor-protégé relationship, there will be doctrinal instruction, no matter what you call it. It’s inevitable. But it won’t necessarily be biblical.

So if Erwin isn’t teaching Christian doctrine to his new converts, what exactly is he teaching? Based on what I’ve seen and heard at Mosaic, he is teaching his own mixed up, half truth/half lie, humanistic doctrine. Jesus said, “In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matt 15:9). Satan is not idle when the truth is suppressed. He fills the vacuum with his own perverted teachings (1 Tim 4:1)

Erwin has the sense to know that Christians (unfortunately fewer and fewer) have the discernment to know biblical truth from man-centered fiction. Perhaps that’s why he doesn’t like Christians. [7] See, if Erwin can make his own converts from people of unchurched backgrounds, people who have never even opened a Bible or heard a sermon, then he can make “disciples” out of them however he wants. It reminds me of Jesus’s words to the Pharisees in Matthew 23:15: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.” That’s Erwin, making converts to himself. He rebukes the Church for its lack of evangelistic zeal (see, that part’s true), but then he goes and makes converts to his own distortion of the gospel, which isn’t the Gospel at all.

“Discipleship is All About Standardization – It’s Christian ‘Cloning’”

In Erwin’s Catalyst Video Talk, a video clip promoting the Catalyst Conference this coming October, Erwin said there are five words he would like to share that reflect and describe where the Church needs to go to be a genuine, authentic spiritual community. The first word was “Uniqueness.” He said,

There has to be a shift from standardization to uniqueness. The Church of Jesus Christ is known in the western world as being the advocate and defender, the protector of standardization… Discipleship is all about standardization…you have to do things exactly a certain way…and so a follower of Jesus Christ is a disciplined person…and so what you have to do to come to Jesus Christ is you’ve got to become like everyone else who was ever a Christian before. We all know that’s what Jesus died for (laughter). He died to clone us all (laughter). But people without God have a spiritual instinct. See I think a lot of us who are in Christ lose our instinct for what’s real and authentic, but people without Christ, they smell it. They’ve been conned so many times.

And what happens in when we try to standardize people, when we create discipleship cloning systems where we try to make everyone the same, people without God go, “You know I’m not sure I really want that.” But the Church of Jesus Christ, if she’s going to be going to be relevant and effective and actually create the future that needs to be created, needs to become a place where people around the world go, “Do you want to discover your uniqueness? Do you want to be seen for the person you really are? Do you want to find out the unique fingerprint of God on your soul, you need to go anywhere Jesus is because that’s where uniqueness is valued and discovered and unleashed.

First of all, let me say I would be honored if someone were to say to me, “Hey, you’re nothing but a clone of Christ.” Do you know where the term “Christian” came from? It was a derogatory insult thrown at the church of Antioch (Acts 11:26). These Antioch disciples of Christ all started to look and act the same way, apparently like Christ, in their character and actions, in their love for each other and for unbelievers, so the people around them started calling them “Little Christs” or “Christians.” And the name stuck.

See, Erwin is trying to put an image in our minds of the most grotesque thing we can think of – a clone, an automaton, a mindless, go-through-the-motions robot. Then he links that image with Christian discipleship. His purpose is clear – to make discipleship appalling to us.

More Biblical Insight into True Discipleship

The Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 1:3-10:

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

What Erwin calls “information” the Bible calls knowledge. And what is the purpose of this knowledge? It is one of the building blocks of the Christian faith that leads toward effectiveness and fruitfulness in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Again knowledge! Those without these qualities, knowledge included, are considered nearsighted to the point of blindness because they do not remember that God is the one who cleansed their sins. Peter says that if we do practice these qualities, we will never fall. Wow! What high praise for godly knowledge!

Now check this out. The word “knowledge” in verse 5 is the basic word for knowledge. It is used in the New Testament to refer to knowledge of truth and doctrine. But notice the word “knowledge” in verse 8. That’s a different Greek word. It means discernment. So here’s how you put them together. Growing in these qualities the Apostle Peter mentions, including knowledge of truth and doctrine, leads to effectiveness and fruitfulness in discernment of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, growing in the knowledge of biblical truth leads to increasing discernment in distinguishing between the real Jesus Christ and counterfeit Christs, or antichrists.

Let me say this as politely yet emphatically as I can. If someone were trying to preach a different gospel, a different “Christ,” which would be no gospel at all since there is only one Lord and Savior Jesus Christ – if someone were trying to do this, or if the devil were trying to do this through someone, what’s one of the first things he’s going to do to validate his false christ? He’s going to do his best to eliminate spiritual discernment. And how’s he going to do that? By putting away the knowledge of truth Now look at verse 9. That’s a verse about sin and how when we don’t practice these godly qualities, we lose sight of how sinful we were, of how great the Father’s love for us was in putting forth Jesus as a propitiation for our many sins (Ro 3:25). Hear this. If a person belittles the absolutely catastrophic effects that sin had on him before Christ saved Him, or the dominating impact that sin still holds on those who are still without Christ, or the infinitely great price God has paid in the excruciating death of His Son to reconcile us to Himself by atoning for our sins, if a person does that, he is the kind of person Peter is describing in verse 9.

The Peculiar Absence of Sin from Erwin’s “Discipleship”

Erwin McManus doesn’t believe in sin, at least not in the biblical sense. [8] The sinful nature that holds dominion over lost sinners is not even a consideration for Erwin. Jesus’s death on the cross was meaningful only in the sense that it cleared the way for us to become fully human, to be able to achieve our full potential. Oh, I’m sure Erwin believes in some form of atonement, but its more of a “you’re all in unless you opt out” atonement where Jesus’s death was universally applied to everyone at the cross and now we just need to embrace and unleash its power – “believe, belong and become” all you can be! That’s the gospel according to Erwin. Oh, it includes evangelism, of course, but Erwin has also redefined that to mean nothing more than helping people find the unique fingerprint of God on their souls, that fingerprint that reveals their true self and unleashes that self to make its unique contribution to the “Kingdom of God.” That sounds a lot like Abraham Maslow to me:

Human nature is not nearly as bad as it has been thought to be. In fact it can be said that the possibilities of human nature have customarily been sold short…Since this inner nature is good or neutral rather than bad, it is best to bring it out and to encourage it rather than to suppress it. If it is permitted to guide our life, we grow healthy, fruitful, and happy. [9]

Maslow is best known for his humanistic “Hierarchy of Needs,” as well as for introducing, along with Carl Rogers, the idea of the Third Force in psychology – humanistic, existential psychology which stressed human freedom and potential. What is not as well known is that in his later years he introduced still another Fourth Force – transpersonal psychology. This Fourth Force was clearly occultic in nature, having to do transcendental meditation. It was in developing this Fourth Force that Maslow appended his pyramid which previously capped off with self-actualization by adding “transpersonal,” i.e. self-realization. [10] His work is held in high esteem by yoga masters, astrologers and other New Agers. [11]

Erwin’s “ministry” and ”preaching” places a great deal of emphasis on the “self.” Of course, he, like most Emergent types, uses Christian lingo to make his apostasy sound biblical Add a verse or two here and there, taken out of context (who’s gonna know since there’s no one being biblically discipled), and you’ve got a pretty cleverly disguised heresy masquerading around as authentic Christianity. But don’t be deceived. Spirituality, yes. Authentic Christianity, no. It’s New Age, humanistic, and demonic!

Erwin’s “discipleship” program consists of a three-step process. First, he gets people as far away from sound doctrine, from discipleship, from knowledge of the Word of God, as he possibly can. That leaves them blank slates; empty containers ready to be filled. (Now who are the clones?) Second, he gets people to discover how they are unique and valuable “to God” (self-actualization). And third, he helps people to transcend themselves by letting God unleash them and their potential to “create the future” that God imagines (transpersonal/self-realization). [12] First of all, without truth/doctrine, how can we know what God is imagining? Without objective truth, it’s all subjective opinion and projected “reality.” And second, is “imagining” an word we should be attributing to our sovereign God “who works all things according to the counsel of His will”(Eph 1:11), who “declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done” (Is 46:10)?

[1] The link for this article is http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles Mar05/Art_Mar05_09.html
[2] Mike Corley did a radio program entitled “Christianity 101” featuring Erwin’s speech before the SBC. That program is no longer available at Mike Corley’s link at Oneplace.com, but I’ve contacted Mike and he is working on sending me a link to that program. If it arrives, I will post it in my next article.
[3] See this short video clip The Biblical Model is to Disciple Unbelievers with Erwin McManus.
[4] Interview with The Baptist Standard posted on March 9, 2007.
[5] The interview was on January 27, 2007. Drew Marshall said to Erwin, “You don’t describe yourself as a pastor,” to which Erwin responded, “No, I don’t.”
[6] Ibid.
[7] There are some web interviews where Erwin has stated his dislike of Christians, but one particular quote from Erwin goes like this: “My wife tells me, ‘You don’t even like Christians. I say, ‘and?”
[8] The Bible sees sin primarily as a violation of God’s infinite holiness. Therefore sin must be punished with infinite severity. In Emerging Church philosophy however, sin can have multiple meanings such as interpersonal sins (against others), environmental sins (against nature), structural sins (homophobia, racism, etc.) and personal sins (defined as “actions harming oneself.”) See Emerging Church, Liberal Theology, and Liberation Theology at www.wikipedia.org
[9] Abraham H. Maslow, Toward a Psychology of Being, 3rd Edition. John Wiley & Sons, 1968, 1999), p. 5.
[10] While there are several websites that elaborate on this Fourth Force, they are New Age in nature and I cannot recommend them without prayerful discernment. That being said, there is a somewhat neutral website dealing with Maslow: http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html.
[11] No offense to my readers, but I am going to refrain from directing you to sites that are occult-oriented – New Age, yoga, astrology, etc. If you have discernment enough, you will find abundant research done on Maslow, Rogers, Jung and other psychologists’ connection with the occult.
[12] In the Catalyst Video Talk, Erwin said, “If we as spiritual leaders are called to do anything, we are called to invest our lives in the community of faith to the body of Christ to the Church of Jesus Christ and begin to shape and create and unleash and nurture and develop and maximize what God imagines today that He commands for us to make a reality tomorrow.”

Biblenuggetlady
August 5th, 2007, 02:51 PM
I ordered Roger Oaklands new book that is releasing next week, it is called "Faith Undone", I am really looking forward to it and hope to share it with some of my family members. You can order the book, and read more on the Emergent/Emerging church at:

http://understandthetimes.org/


Emergent Leaders and/or Supporters

Rick Warren

Brian McLaren

Rob Bell

George Barna

Pete Greig (24/7prayer-relevant-Order of the mustard seed)

Dan Kimball

Doug Pagitt

Donald Miller

Erwin McManus

Leonard Sweet

Tony Jones

Youth Specialties

Tony Campolo

Ruth Haley Barton

Taize Community

Laurie Beth Jones

Contemplatives (swaying Emergent)

Richard Foster

Dallas Willard

Ken Blanchard

Tony Jones

Wayne Teasdale

Thomas Merton

Brennan Manning

Thomas Keating

Charles Swindoll

Eugene Peterson (The Message)

Christianity Today

Larry Crabb

Charles Stanley

Calvin Miller

Beth Moore (Be Still DVD)

Chuck Smith JUNIOR

Josh McDowell

Ed Young Jr.

Berean Girl
August 5th, 2007, 06:59 PM
to see Charles Stanley caving in.... I still record his shows but have not lately been listening to them...

As for Swindoll, he comes on the radio before James MacDonald of "Walk in the Word", but I dont pay him any mind these days, in fact, sometimes I get really annoyed with him....

:ohno

extreme4jesus
August 5th, 2007, 09:35 PM
i am sooo sick of this apostasy...
come Lord Jesus

Abba'sLil'Girl
August 5th, 2007, 11:22 PM
Charles Stanley


You've gotta be kidding me.

I used to work for Stanley years ago. Controlling, yes. Emergent, no.

Here's fba's statement of faith:
http://www.fba.org/aboutfba/statement_of_faith.html

Respectfully, while I'm not a big fan of Stanley's "management" style or "celebrity" status, to be fair to the man, you may want to research your claim before you throw ol' Charlie under the apostasy bus.

Either way, I've gotta e-mail em' on this. :lol2

Biblenuggetlady
August 6th, 2007, 12:04 AM
You've gotta be kidding me.

I used to work for Stanley years ago. Controlling, yes. Emergent, no.

Here's fba's statement of faith:
http://www.fba.org/aboutfba/statement_of_faith.html

Respectfully, while I'm not a big fan of Stanley's "management" style or "celebrity" status, to be fair to the man, you may want to research your claim before you throw ol' Charlie under the apostasy bus.
Either way, I've gotta e-mail em' on this. :lol2

:scratch He is listed under "Contemplatives"?

Biblenuggetlady
August 6th, 2007, 12:55 AM
More info on Stanely:
http://www.erwm.com/Schlueter12.htm
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/04/meditating_on_c_1.html

Be Still and Know...that you are being deceived.

By Brian Flynn


There is nothing more devious than a lie told with subtlety. Last week, I purchased the Be Still and Know That I am God DVD produced by 20th Century Fox. The cover boasts of such contemplatives as Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, Calvin Miller and Priscilla Shirer, along with some names that may surprise you—Max Lucado, Beth Moore. An acknowledgement list at the end includes Brennan Manning and Dr. Charles Stanley.