Grace Gospel Fellowship Churches

[Channa]

Answer to God's Trombone #24

To me it sounds like there are two different messages.

Most of the Bible was written for and about the nation of Israel; the Gentile (heathen) nations were mentioned only in relation to Israel.

Jesus was the fulfilment of the covenantal promise of God to the nation of Israel. Gentiles had no part in this national covenant.

Jesus was born, lived and died a devote Jew. His message was to the Jews ONLY. Lots of good information for us Gentiles, but the only way to be included in His message was to be part of the nation of Israel.

Then the risen, glorified Jesus taught the learned Jew, Paul, a great MYSTERY. This second message was not directed at a national or ethnic people, such as the Nation of Israel, but to individual persons, Jews AND Gentiles, who despite persecution (sometimes unto death) by other Jews and Gentiles, became members of a new group, the Body of Christ.

This group, the Body of Christ, is looking forward to the Rapture, when Jesus comes in the clouds and we are taken from this earth to dwell with HIm in Heaven.

Meanwhile, the nation of Israel is looking for the return of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, who will put His feet on the Mt. of Olves and split the Mount asunder. Then He will defeat the enemies (Gentile nations) of Israel and rule and reign for 1000 years on earth, with Israel again as the covenant nation.

If the messages are the same why is the Body of Christ awaiting the Rapture and Heaven, but Israel waits for the Second Coming of Jesus to earth?

[God's Trombone]

Channa wrote-Answer to God's Trombone #24

To me it sounds like there are two different messages.

:nod
There certainly were two messages!

Your post is "right on!":thumb

[God's Trombone]

I dunno GT, its kind of difficult to follow your posting 'style'. Regardless, it doesn't seem like you added anything of note to the specifics of what I said. Its a deep subject, and only the periphery was brought up by me, enough to address the poster.

It is noted Paul preached the kingdom. Examples etc, etc...
The poster suggests differences, the scriptures show they are the same. The content and your post notwithstanding.

I am sorry I have not made it as clear as I assumed I was.

The scriptures you posted have Paul preaching his Gospel in the synagogues etc. Certainly he did. However he did not preach either "the kingdom is at hand" or offer the kingdom, as did Peter in Acts 2,3 ff. What he preached that was commonwith Peter's message is what we see in Romans 1:1,2

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)Paul knew the Gentiles in Rome were believing the content of Peter's message in early Acts, and he intended to build upon that message, i.e., that Christ was the prophesied Messiah, had risen from the dead.

When Paul preached in the synagogues he first taught the above message, since his Gospel had no meaning without the message of Christ being the Son of God and Messiah. What distinguishes his Gospel from Peter's is that it's content was not prophesied in scriptures , but hidden in God.

[HeIsEnough]

The scriptures you posted have Paul preaching his Gospel in the synagogues etc. Certainly he did. However he did not preach either "the kingdom is at hand" or offer the kingdom, as did Peter in Acts 2,3 ff. What he preached that was commonwith Peter's message is what we see in Romans 1:1,2


There is no difference between 'the kingdom is at hand' and 'Jesus is coming again', other then recognizing they didn't quite grasp the timing elements until later.

When they did see that the kingdom was not coming immediately, and remembered Christ's words:


Acts 1

6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

I am concerned that you keep propagating a "Two Gospel" message. It disturbs me because this is one of the reasons Paul's writings come into disrepute, because men say he 'invented' christianity.

When in fact this is what Paul rebuked Peter about by telling him to get in line with the gospel in Galatians 2, not 'stick to your own gospel'. Paul's message and Peter's were the same, though Peter and the other Apostles took time to understand it.

Sometimes, the obvious is right before us, like here:


Galatians 2

(Peter) he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

Peter didn't have some different message, though Paul's message was additive for Peter as well, he was afraid of being murdered, like Christ before him. I don't know about you, but if you ever get around a bunch of legalists and try to speak of grace, you will taste a smidgen of what Peter was living. The Apostles were afraid for their very lives. If we keep this in mind, the picture becomes clearer. Of course I don't expect you to agree with me, but maybe someone besides you and Channa will read these words and consider what I say.

[God's Trombone]

Heisenough,

As I see your position, it says` that what God promised Israel, all that is in the OT , in the 4 Gospels has been replaced by the "further wisdom" of Paul's message.

I believe that is not what the Bible tells us, but that God's dealing with Israel has not changed but is on hold until the Body of Christ is filled up.

[HeIsEnough]

Heisenough,

As I see your position, it says` that what God promised Israel, all that is in the OT , in the 4 Gospels has been replaced by the "further wisdom" of Paul's message.

I believe that is not what the Bible tells us, but that God's dealing with Israel has not changed but is on hold until the Body of Christ is filled up.

GT,

No. What God has promised Israel will come to pass.

What I see in the gospels and in the OT is the anticipation and fulfillment (Christ's own words starkly and point blankly say it is coming) of where we are at presently.

You are arguing against your suppositions of what you think people think.

[pegmo]

Aliya wrote: I was curious to hear your thoughts, if it was today that you heard Les Felrick (at Bethesda Church in Prior Lake). I was there also.


Hi Aliya. Yes it was at Bethesda Church in Prior Lake. I wish I knew you would be there. I have never met another RR poster in person! Sorry I didn't see your note earlier. Have you heard Les before in person? I do like his style - he is so easy going. Is that your regular church by any chance? What did you think? I have to gather my thoughts since it was 4 days ago....

[Aliya]

Hi Aliya. Yes it was at Bethesda Church in Prior Lake. I wish I knew you would be there. I have never met another RR poster in person! Sorry I didn't see your note earlier. Have you heard Les before in person? I do like his style - he is so easy going. Is that your regular church by any chance? What did you think? I have to gather my thoughts since it was 4 days ago....

That was the first time I heard Les in person. I did go up for the Monday night and part of the day on Tuesday to the conference in Osceola. It was good, though a lot of repetition.

I started attending Bethesda in mid-June, after learning about the gospel of the Grace of God vs the Gospel of the Kingdom. I had gotten part way on my own through study, but was praying for God to help me understand some of the alleged contradictions in the scriptures, then I heard Les on the radio and then things began to fall rapidly in place. It is so exciting when the bible makes so much sense! There are things that are definitely likable about Bethesda - the Sunday school class I attend is fantastic, the music is very god-centered (not man-centered), and they are very very nice people. I haven't heard a lot of Pastor Mark's preaching yet, but I was very impressed at the conference with the depth of his knowledge and his thoughts. I am thinking about making it my new church home - I've been looking for a few years. Not sure how much longer we'll be here, but it will be nice to put roots down, even though the drive is long (I live north of the cities).

[pegmo]

Aliya, when I called the church to find out more about the service before we went, I talked to the church secretary, and she comes in from Elk River to work there and worship there. So there are others driving a long distance!

You know the only thing that I thought I might not like at the church was Pastor Mark's style....he was a little too sing songy and sweet. He is probably a very happy person....but I thought that might get on my nerves after awhile! I tend to like a more direct style. What does that say about me!

I have learned alot listening to Les on the radio. I am not sure I agree with everything, but he makes connections that I would never see. And I just love that he loves teaching. I love that he is so strong in the Word and in His beliefs and isn't afraid to say what he thinks. And I get a kick out of the way he gets off on tangents and loses track of time.

Our church just moved to a big new building and is putting all kinds of seeker type practices in place. They still preach a strong gospel now and then, but I wonder how long that will last. I love most of the people there also.

I don't get the sense that Bethesda will succumb to the seeker sensitive style. You may see us there again sometime. If we decide to attend again, I will PM you and maybe we can say hello!

Pegmo