August 24th, 2009, 01:36 PM
Extra! Extra! Extra! Hear all about it from Ray comfort, your roving reporter for the Legalistic Times!
Salvation is more than faith in Jesus Christ folks. The girl said she believes and has faith in Jesus and reads her Bible. But it’s not good enough; God got it wrong! You have to do Works! Works! Works! Clean up your life, repent of all your sin, stop sinning and then, and only then will you be saved!
The girl was right. Ray Comfort has little faith; he only understands ‘plus works’. This is not The Gospel of The Lord Jesus Christ.
What must I do to be saved? Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ ------Acts 16:30-31.
Never mind that I think this appalling. Of far greater importance is what does The Word of God say about adding or subtracting from God’s Word? :tsk
Having listened to Way of the Master for a few years, I can see from your post that you have not enough information to understand what he believes, because I believe he would be just as sad as I am to hear you say such things.
You want to compare two extremes; legalism and greasy grace, standing back from afar.
You need to focus in a little bit and learn more about what he is saying.
WotM is not either one.
August 24th, 2009, 02:52 PM
I really believe that Ray Comfort is blessed of God to spread the gospel as he is doing. I've read Ray Comfort's stuff and I've read my Bible and they do not contradict.
Why shouldn't I also question Jesus himself when he told the adulterous woman, "Go and sin no more." Why didn't he tell her to go and disbelieve no more?
God hates sin and there's no doubt about it. And He does not want his children wallowing in it. Ray Comfort's efforts to open blind eyes to the wickedness and hopelessness of sin is very consistent with the Bible.
I like WOTM teaching and think it can be effective in most cases. I was just thinking of the quote italicized above when you posted it. I have been playing devil's advocate with myself about those verses just the last two days. The woman believed then Jesus told her to go and sin no more. Did she repent before she believed or afterward? If you notice, Jesus pointed out her sinfulness to her before she believed in him. She already knew her sinfulness but Jesus still pointed them out to her. I think many recognize their sinfulness and need but others don't recognize their sinfulness and their need until it's pointed out to them. For some WOTM witnessing is necessary. For others it isn't because they already know but still refuse to believe.
I like this quote from Randy Alcorn's book The Truth and Grace Paradox:
If we minimize grace the world sees no hope for salvation. If we minimize truth, the world sees no need for salvation. To show the world Jesus, we must offer full-orbed, unabridged truth and grace, magnifying both, never downsizing or apologizing for either.
August 24th, 2009, 03:34 PM
We mustn't allow the true Gospel message to be PERVERTED - scripture clearly teaches REPENTANCE - NO repentance = NO SALVATION or FORGIVENESS...
Mt 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Lk 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
Lk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Lk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Lk 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Lk 11:32 The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Lk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
Lk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Lk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Lk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Lk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
My goodness, could it be any CLEARER? :tsk
August 24th, 2009, 04:22 PM
Because Covenant Theology followers like Ray Comfort do not accept a distinction between Israel and the Church; it cannot see that every single Scripture in the Gospels and Acts calling ‘to repent’ concerns the Jews.
I have said it before, so briefly, the Jews had to repent, ‘change their minds’ about the teaching of the law and the prophets concerning Messiah so that they could then ‘believe’. The Gentiles have no understanding of the law and the prophets to ‘change their minds’ about. Just like the Jews, in order to be saved they have to ‘believe’ on the Lord Jesus Christ’. It is a simple act of faith which is a gift of God.
The initial act of Salvation means to be delivered from original sin which we are all born with. Covenant Theology interpretation muddles sin (singular) with sinning (plural) which is the result of being IN sin (original) which separated us from God. We were dead in that original sin, and by faith in Christ, we pass from death to life. Once born again the Holy Spirit is within us and it is His work to change us from one degree of glory to the other.
Sanctification throughout the life of the believer, until they die, does involve repentance from sinning (plural). Repentance from sinning is not required for the initial act of Salvation. To say otherwise, like C.T. is ‘another gospel’ awarded to someone for cleaning up their lives = works.
A Gospel with Repentance is NOT THE GOSPEL
In order to understand this truth, repentance of Covenant Theology's interpretaion is required.
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
What is repentance? Let me read to you from the Westminster Confession of Faith, a document that comes to us from the seventeenth century: "By [repentance] a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God, purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments. . . yet [repentance] is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it. As there is no sin so small that it deserves damnation; so there is no sin so great that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly"
Now that is a good biblical explanation of repentance. Now in the Old Testament the word that is used is shoov. When you read Psalm 80, in verses 3, 7 and 19, there is this prayer offered to God: Turn us, turn us, O God, that we may be saved, or, restore us, that we may be saved. In other words, the word shoov in Hebrew means to turn - to turn from sin and turn unto God. So the heart of repentance is turning. In the New Testament you have the word metanoia. Now that speaks about a radical revolutionary change in our thinking, resulting in a change of our understanding of reality, a change of values, a change of goals, a change of purpose and a change of relationships. In other words, repentance is a revolutionary idea.
Now, repentance is a necessary prerequisite for salvation. No person can be saved without true repentance. When you look at John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus Christ, and see how he preached, we read in Matthew 3:2, In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the desert of Judea and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." When Jesus Christ began his ministry, we read in Matthew 4:17, From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." And the apostles also preached repentance as a necessary condition for salvation. You find that particularly in the preaching of the apostles in the book of Acts. For example, in Acts 17:30 St. Paul preached, "In the past God overlooked such ignorance but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." And after his resurrection and glorification, Jesus Christ himself spoke to the churches in chapters 2 and 3 of the book of Revelation. In chapter 2, verse 5, we read, "Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first." Repent! Repent! Repent! Without repentance there cannot be any salvation. There cannot be any restoration of our relationship with God.
Repentance is part of the gospel. Jesus told his disciples after his resurrection in Luke 24:46-47 that they must preach repentance and forgiveness of sins to all the nations. So we need to ask the question: What is repentance? There is an idea of repentance that is not true. It is called attrition. It is a superficial and false repentance. It is a repentance that is self-focused and self-centered, such as when a mother sees the hand of her child in the cooky jar and then all of a sudden the child repents. The reason for that "repentance" is that he is afraid of punishment. So attrition is fear of punishment, or fear of losing a blessing. It is a false form of repentance. It is self-centered repentance.
In the Bible we see some illustrations of false repentance. In the book of Matthew, chapter 27, we read about Judas who betrayed our Lord Jesus Christ. Matthew 27, beginning with verse 3, says: When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." Well, of course, this is not true repentance at all. And you also notice the repentance of Esau. In the book of Hebrews, chapter 12, verses 16-17, we read about the repentance of Esau in this way: See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind - he could bring about no repentance - though he sought the blessing with tears. Notice, here Esau is not deeply grieving because he offended God. His repentance had to do with loss of blessing.
So there is a kind of repentance that is superficial and false. It is called attrition. It is due to fear of punishment or loss of blessing. And this kind of repentance will never bring a person to enjoy the kingdom of God.
What is true repentance? It is called contrition. It is characterized by deep, godly sorrow for having offended God. We read about this kind of godly repentance, godly sorrow, in 2 Corinthians 7, beginning with verse 10 and following. You see this kind of repentance in the life of Job in Job 42:5,6 and in the life of David in Psalm 51. Let's turn to Psalm 51, specifically, and take a look. There, of course, David is repenting with a godly repentance. Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. In other words, true repentance is God-centered and God-focused. It is characterized by a deep, godly sorrow for having offended God by violating his laws.
You also see such godly repentance in the life of Peter who denied Jesus Christ three times. Jesus Christ turned and looked at him, and we read in the Luke 23:62: And he went outside - that is, Peter the apostle, who denied the Lord Jesus Christ three times - and wept bitterly for having denied his Lord and his Savior. That is true repentance. So true repentance is characterized by a deep, godly sorrow for having offended a holy and majestic God and his laws.
Secondly, true repentance, godly sorrow, is characterized by a hatred for the specific sin you have committed, and you turn from that sin. You forsake that sin. That is godly sorrow. If there is no hatred for that specific sin you have committed, and you are not turning from that sin, you are not repenting biblically.
Thirdly, a person who truly repents confesses fully concerning his sin, without blameshifting. We read about this in 2 Samuel 12:13. When Nathan confronted David about his sin, he said, "I have sinned." Any person who blameshifts and who refuses to own his sin lets us know right away that his is not true repentance.
Fourthly, if you are truly repenting of your sin, you will make public confession of it when it is biblically warranted.
Fifthly, you will make restitution where possible. If you stole somebody's money, then you will see to it that the money is restored. Wherever possible, you will make restitution.
Sixthly, you will be zealous in doing the exact opposite of that sin. You will be zealous for doing righteousness. You will be zealous for doing that which is virtuous and that which is opposite to that specific sin you have committed. St. Paul says in Ephesians 4:28: He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands that he may have something to share with those in need. Or turn to the book of Acts, chapter 26, where St. Paul speaks about repentance. In Acts 26:20, Paul says, "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds," by their righteous obedience to God.
If a person is not seriously engaged in obedience to God, then we must say that that person's repentance was attrition. It was superficial. It was false. It was self-centered. It had nothing to do with that person's understanding of God and his holiness and majesty, against which the person sinned.
Now let me say to you, most modern gospel - most of the gospel that is preached in modern times in the evangelical churches - is a gospel that is without repentance. Jesus saves you, but Jesus is not Lord. You don't have to repent of anything. You don't have to turn from anything at all. You can engage in sin and at the same time be assured that Jesus has saved you. Let me say to you, this idea of salvation without repentance is a grand delusion. It is a gospel made attractive to modern man, who is allergic to repentance.
This true repentance is not man-created and man-made. It is the fruit of regeneration, not the cause of it. It is the result of the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of an individual sinner. Jesus Christ speaks about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in this way in John 17, verse 7 and following: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin. . ." In other words, no sinner can self-manufacture true repentance. This authentic, godly sorrow is the work of the Holy Spirit in our life. So it is the fruit of regeneration.
Not only that, repentance is the gift of God. Now you know that in the book of Acts, chapter 10, God caused St. Peter to preach the gospel to the Gentiles and the church in Jerusalem found out about it. And finally they made this conclusion, having listened to the report of the gospel preaching to the house of Cornelius. Here is the concluding remark: When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, 'So, then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." (Acts 11:18) In other words, repentance is a divine gift. And that is the reason why even in the Old Testament in Psalm 80, verses 3, 7 and 19, this prayer is offered three times: Turn us, that we may be turned. No human sinner can turn on his own. But a lot of people preach that that is what you should do and then God will save you. Well, that is a lot of nonsense. It is not biblical.
And let me tell you, this repentance is not a one-time thing. It is an ongoing experience in a Christian's life. It is continuous because sin still dwells in us. So we read, If we confess our sins, [God] is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9) Sin is still with us. We sin daily and we need to repent daily, particularly of our sinful behavior towards God.
Let me also tell you, repentance is unto something. It is repentance unto the remission of sins. We read about that in Acts 2:38. In other words, without repentance you cannot have remission of sins. Not only that, repentance is unto life, meaning eternal life. Without repentance there cannot be any forgiveness of sins, and without repentance no person can experience eternal life, which is fellowship with God. Who, then, is to repent? Sinners are to repent. Every person who is proud and arrogant, who is baptized in the juice of self-esteem, can never experience forgiveness of sins and salvation. Jesus came to seek and save sinners. And the Bible declares that all are sinners. If you deny this, you will not repent and be saved. A self-righteous person can never repent and be saved. He will never make it to heaven. But whenever a person does repent, which, of course, is the result of God's working in a sinner, there is great joy in heaven. We read about it in Luke, chapter 15.
God desires you to repent and be saved. God and angels rejoice at your repentance. The church rejoices. Your believing wife rejoices. Your believing children rejoice. There is great joy and celebration when a sinner turns from his sin and turns unto God. May God grant you repentance today unto forgiveness of sins, that you may experience eternal life, which is fellowship with our God. Amen.
August 24th, 2009, 05:57 PM
Hey, They got a new one up today!
[YOU TUBE VIDEO]Hpl5Ea8zMiI[/YOU TUBE VIDEO]
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Remove the law, and teach another gospel...
1 Timothy 1:8-9 (New King James Version)
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
Remove it from the gospel, and you get a non-biblcal gospel..since no one knows what they are being saved from..
It's clear that some people in here disagree with that, which is too bad.. Its key to understanding the bibical gospel, as it was for me, and many others..
Dan~~~>thinks we should mirror Christ in its use...reguardless of who is offended..
August 24th, 2009, 08:17 PM
Ray definitely does NOT believe in a "fruitless" Christianity. Here is his own words regarding OSAS...
Do you believe in "Once saved always saved?"
Unfortuantely, when commenting on the subject of eternal security, many books and sermons from respectable men and women of God, seem to be evidently silent on the subject of true and false conversion. This is in spite the fact that it is incredibly relevant to the topic of eternal security. The New Testament deals with this in great depth. It tells of Judas' profession of faith (he was in truth a thief, and was referred to by Jesus as a "devil"), and relates the parables of Jesus about the true and false "believers" sitting alongside one another. It speaks of Demas, who forsook Paul because he "loved this present world." As such, he revealed himself to be an enemy of God-- "Whoever is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.”
In one book, the author referred to a pastor/friend who was found to be "romantically" involved with another woman. The pastor had made his mind up to divorce his wife and marry the woman. I presume he means that he had been committing adultery. Instead of challenging the man as to the validity of his faith, and therefore warning him that "adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God," he spoke of the man's "loss of rewards."
We do believe in eternal security for a true convert. He puts his hand to the plow and doesn't look back, because he is "fit" for the kingdom (Luke 9:62).
Those who are fit for the Kingdom are not hypocrites as was Judas. The true convert is eternally secure in his faith, because his faith in Jesus is genuine rather than false.
However, if a man steals, lies, kills, rapes, hates, lusts, covets, commits adultery, etc., and calls himself a Christian, he would be very wise to examine himself and see if he is "in the faith." The Bible makes it very clear that hypocrites will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
If a man has no understanding of true and false conversion (in his ignorance), he may make a calculated decision to forsake a few future eternal rewards and trade them for the immediate and temporary pleasures of sin. His confidence is in an interpretation of scripture that may have eternally tragic repercussions.
We think that teaching on true and false conversion would clear the air when it comes to the contentions between two opinions that so often divide the Church. It would bring closer together those who say you can lose your salvation at the drop of a sinful hat, and others who think that Christians can get away with murder and still be assured that they are saved, because they once professed faith in the Savior.
For more information, freely listen online to "True and False Conversion" from the 16 message audio set (available on CDs).
In addition, those who follow Covenant Theology are primarily preterist and amillennialists which I don't believe either Ray or Kirk Cameron are either. Kirk starred in the 'Left Behind' movies, if he were either preterist or amillennial in his beliefs I'm sure he wouldn't have done that.
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