Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

[Waiting2go]

I think I acknowledged the article's leftish roots in the OP. It's not who's saying it, but what they are saying. Every point Wolf makes is, to varying degrees, true.

As far as the Patriot Act, I am willing to bet every cent I ever have a hope of making that it will never be let to lapse, and if it does, it will only be so they can substitute something even more invasive of personal liberty.

I agree 1000%!!!

[zizi]

zizi...this is the Goldwater conservative:

http://www.nationalcenter.org/Goldwater.html

there are a few, mostly in the South, that are conservative democrats, still a bunch of republicans are, and the constitutional party is full of them.

I'd say "conservative" is to the right of Rudy Giuliani, and your thoughts?

Rudy G. Hmmm. Which Rudy? This week's, last month's 2001's, 1999's, or the one who's dressed in drag? It's hard to keep up. He makes my head spin.

Thing about Goldwater (a personal hero of mine) is, he had little good to say about the religious intrusion on the traditional conservative platform. He had *nothing* good to say about Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. He was not pro-life by any stretch. A modern American of higher (or even equal) integrity and goodstanding is difficult to find these days, IMO.

I suppose, depending on the day of week, a few of today's most public self-proclaimed conservatives stradle the fence between Goldwater conservatism and authoritarian religious conservatism, based I suspect on audience demongraphics and how their carefully chosen words will suit them best.

Rudy, OTHO, is a mess. You know that best-selling book on addiction that Oprah made a big hoopla over and then, come to find, the author had simply made it all up? Well. The cover art of that book reminds me of Rudy.

Two well-known Goldwater conservatives have fairly recent books out that outline and lay out scenarios that show the USA is national decline and undergoing a crisis in American capitalism. Both titles, in differing ways, show that our nearly blanket acceptance of Bush administrative actions, i.e. The Patriot Act among many others, has left us listing toward the path that leads to neofascism.

The titles are:

"American Theocracy" by Kevin Phillips; and,

"Conservatives without Conscience" by John Dean

Of course now, in 2007, America is not a fascist state, and I do not see where the "10-steps to fascism" claims that were are.

And I do agree with you, with the exception of a few astute and highly concerned American Conservatives, the only others so far clanging the warning bells have been the moderates and the "moonbats", as you call them.

Both books are depressing. Dean's, IMO, comes of self-serving and bitter in the intro. And neither are written by authors cheering on the Religious Conservative side of the court. But the arguments are compelling and disburbingly prophetic.

Methinks we could all benefit from a continuing education Civics Class refresher. Maybe then we could get our heads together and fix things before it's too late.

Wow. That was a lot of typing for a Saturday afternoon.

: )
z

[Ripped]

I've read the Philip's book, zizi, one day I may force myself to read the John Dean one - I've never been exactly a Dean fan, neither John nor Howard.

I think we're looking right at a Giuliani v. Clinton, with the RINO winning.

Do something!!!!

I think I acknowledged the article's leftish roots in the OP. It's not who's saying it, but what they are saying. Every point Wolf makes is, to varying degrees, true.



I beg to differ. Are you trying to tell me that you think the Bush administration has managed to:

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

do all that during a seven-year period?

It's both who's saying it and what they're saying. The far left wants a revolution, as does the far right, but you'll have to be disarmed first by Naomi Wolf's plan.

[Old 33]

As I'm heading off to church, I'll give this brief summary...I'll come back to this later.

The Patriot Act is not all bad...there are many valuable and important tools in it, and I am not aware of any serious Democrat who is calling for the repeal of the entire Act.

Having said that, there are certain provisions which are flatly unconstitutional, and are dangerous. The basic theme of these provisions is the concentration of unchecked power in the executive.

Our founders set up a system where the executive could not have unchecked power. They required, at a minimum, that the execute go before a federal judge before executing a warrant. And the problems I have with the Patriot Act are the instances where it allows law enforcement officers to just act without ever going before a judge.

What's the role of going before a judge? Why is that important? Because it keeps the execute honest and greatly reduces abuses.

[Indiana Janz]

I beg to differ. Are you trying to tell me that you think the Bush administration has managed to:

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

do all that during a seven-year period?

I don't agree exactly with everything Wolf says, and the process itself is at varying degrees of implementation, but the long and the short of it is yes, I am trying to tell you that. There are examples given for each of the ten steps, and I think they speak for themselves.

[Ripped]

Indiana Janz - can you take one of those points and elaborate? I realize they happened elsewhere throughout history, that fact just makes them theoretically possible.

The Patriot Act is not all bad...there are many valuable and important tools in it, and I am not aware of any serious Democrat who is calling for the repeal of the entire Act.

Having said that, there are certain provisions which are flatly unconstitutional, and are dangerous. The basic theme of these provisions is the concentration of unchecked power in the executive.

Provisions such as? Vague..............


Our founders set up a system where the executive could not have unchecked power. They required, at a minimum, that the execute go before a federal judge before executing a warrant. And the problems I have with the Patriot Act are the instances where it allows law enforcement officers to just act without ever going before a judge.

Hmmm...maybe this provision is one....The Patriot Act has been ruled constitutional over and over again. It's been through all the checks and balances.


What's the role of going before a judge? Why is that important? Because it keeps the execute honest and greatly reduces abuses.

The PA's how old and how many "abuses" have occured? You're still trying to defend NOT wire-tapping al-queda, good luck with that one.

[Old 33]

Hmmm...maybe this provision is one....The Patriot Act has been ruled constitutional over and over again. It's been through all the checks and balances.
No...the Patriot Act has never had a court challenge go all the way to a judge's ruling. Every time it gets close the Justice Department has settled the case, or urged the court to apply the "state secrets doctrine" or has ended the conduct at the source of the lawsuit.

The Bush Administration has made sure that the Patriot Act has never been challenged in court, Ripped. It's never been "upheld" by any court.

[Ripped]

No...the Patriot Act has never had a court challenge go all the way to a judge's ruling. Every time it gets close the Justice Department has settled the case, or urged the court to apply the "state secrets doctrine" or has ended the conduct at the source of the lawsuit.

The Bush Administration has made sure that the Patriot Act has never been challenged in court, Ripped. It's never been "upheld" by any court.

The PA was passed by Congress and has been renewed over and over by Congress. It's NOT an executive fiat...

Are we talking about the same thing here?

On April 6, 2004, the ACLU sued the FBI over the USA PATRIOT Act's authority to demand that a business hand over records that may contain private financial or business information that is not pertinent to an ongoing investigation. The specific action in question was the request of the FBI for the account information for users of an Internet service provider.

Citing possible secrecy provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act, the Department of Justice prevented the ACLU from releasing the text of a countersuit for three weeks. [14] After judicial and congressional oversight, sections of the countersuit that did not violate secrecy rules of the USA PATRIOT Act were released.

The lawsuit filed by the ACLU was dropped on October 27, 2006. ACLU stated it is withdrawing the lawsuit because of improvements to the law. "While the reauthorized Patriot Act is far from perfect, we succeeded in stemming the damage from some of the Bush administration's most reckless policies," Ann Beeson, associate legal director of the ACLU."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act_controversy

You're giving me outdated ACLU talking points.

[BloodoftheLamb]

Janz you still Canadian, or you a US citizen now?

[Vonne]

The PA's how old and how many "abuses" have occured? You're still trying to defend NOT wire-tapping al-queda, good luck with that one.

Define "abuse" or "abuses"; considering our governments now used the term "terrorism" as a label for mere criminal activity. Has gone to great links to fabricate in the minds of society, whether a real threat or imagined, a link between organized crime and the funding of terrorism. Patriot Act provisions now enable law enforcement to use tactics designed to fight terrorists against "common" criminals...

Pff.. who cares about them, they're "criminals" afterall... probally dawg gone felons, heroin dealers, and those whom steal candy from kids... zealous prosecutors and cowboy police officers have never fabricated or inflated charges afterall.... :tsk