Whoa there.......Pontiff

[jelaine]

And why would anyone trust someone that CLAIMS to be "Jesus Vicar"? How dare him use the name , and reference any clloseness to our Lord and Savior. I do not understand it, I never will. It is not religious pride coming from me...just a sincere frustration that the Pope is listened to more that God's Written Word.

:idunno

Because it is written that he shall exault himself above all that is called God, he shall speak pompous words against the Most High and wear out the Saints of the Most High. He shall intend to changes the times, and laws (done)

a lot of folks wont believe but this is the first generation that has seen a man in a chair making himself above, well his thing the popes thing is called 'Ex-Cathedra' which is cannon, infallable, ie, ABOVE all that is called God.

[Hope]

...Why not use scripture, which is even earlier than those "fathers" you mentioned, and also inspired? The earliest manuscripts and writings of the eyewitnesses to Jesus don't jive with the Roman beliefs concerning the church and/or it's head.

Again I am not talking about doctrines, but rather the nature and characteristics of the Church; i.e. the definition of the church. You say it is simply ekklesia, the people of God, but your ancestors had a different view, even very early on. They believed the Church was visible, with a visible authority, and a visible teaching structure. They believed in the concept of apostolic succession, and believed those outside this construct were in schism. They believed, from my earlier quotes, that those not in union with the bishop were not IN the Church even though they may even believe the exact same things?

Do you feel that those Christians that I just characterized grossly misunderstood the "nature" (not doctrines) of the Church? (I realize you answered this, but I think there may have been some misunderstanding as to what I was asking, so I just ask you to answer for clarification sake)

Cut and Paste of my earlier reply: The gospel message, the good news of Christ; His necessity and sufficiency can, and often is taught verbally. The basic doctrine is simple doctrine that can profoundly change lives. Christ came to this earth, paid the price for our sins, rose the third day, and now resides at the right hand of the Father. Faithe on Him and be saved.

Sorry, I must have missed your reply. If all churches just taught Jesus Christ and focused on Christ and his attributes and what he accomplished on the cross, there would be no divisions, but we both know that that is not only what is taught in bible churches. Sure, the illiterate can respond to a Billy Graham altar call, but that is not what I am talking about. Every church has its "thing" or its distinctive doctrines that sets them apart from the rest. How can the illiterate become "Berean" in order to find a church that is bible believing and fundamental? Wouldn't they have to become very good readers first?

Thanks Kliska!

Hope

[Buzzardhut]

Can a Catholic answer this question?

Does a Catholic priest place all of his trust in Jesus' completed sacrifice on the cross for his temporal / original sin, past, present, and future, and does he encourage his followers to do the same?

[Kliska]

Sneakin' in to answer, before I have to go (again for those not reading another thread Hope and I are discussing things on; Hubby and I are off on vacation tomorrow, and I'm shirking my duties right now! :lol2 Prayers appreciated for the trip!).

Again I am not talking about doctrines, but rather the nature and characteristics of the Church; i.e. the definition of the church. You say it is simply ekklesia, the people of God, but your ancestors had a different view, even very early on.

But, as scripture shows, teachers such as Paul agree, that the ekklesia are the outcalled ones; out called individuals viewed as a group by their out-called status; not an organization. Christ's own words were, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." And, as I mentioned before, there was more than one organizational church very early on; James was the leader of the church at Jerusalem. Paul was sent out to the gentiles at large, and the rest of the apostles established bodies of believers, labelled churches.

They believed the Church was visible, with a visible authority, and a visible teaching structure. They believed in the concept of apostolic succession, and believed those outside this construct were in schism. They believed, from my earlier quotes, that those not in union with the bishop were not IN the Church even though they may even believe the exact same things?

As I said before, they could have changed, or misunderstood the teachings, and also present day believers could as well. We see this in the scriptures with Paul having issues with those he directly taught. I go to scripture, and I don't see an organizational church, as the Roman position describes it.

Do you feel that those Christians that I just characterized grossly misunderstood the "nature" (not doctrines) of the Church? (I realize you answered this, but I think there may have been some misunderstanding as to what I was asking, so I just ask you to answer for clarification sake)

If we limit this to the quotes you provided earlier, I don't see the Roman position upheld, as you do. The phrases True Church, Catholic, Universal, Bishop, etc... are viable, we just don't interpret them in the same way as the Roman church.

Sorry, I must have missed your reply. If all churches just taught Jesus Christ and focused on Christ and his attributes and what he accomplished on the cross, there would be no divisions, but we both know that that is not only what is taught in bible churches.

Or in the RC. Yeah, I tend to think if we concentrated more on Christ as a whole we'd all be better off.

Sure, the illiterate can respond to a Billy Graham altar call, but that is not what I am talking about. Every church has its "thing" or its distinctive doctrines that sets them apart from the rest. How can the illiterate become "Berean" in order to find a church that is bible believing and fundamental? Wouldn't they have to become very good readers first?

Here's the thing I keep coming back to, and the thing that makes it all work; the Holy Spirit. I believe in His power, and the scriptures that say He will guide believers into all Truth. If a person truly believes in their heart that Jesus is Lord and Saviour, and they turn themselves over to Him, they will be guided. The same is true of those individuals that are say, mentally handicapped, that can't absorb everything on an intellectual level; the Holy Spirit will provide. Again, I believe absolutely in the gospel of Christ; Faith and renewing. Also, I believe the sheep know the Shepherd's voice, and for those who really can't read, there are good Bible teachers/preachers out there for them to listen to.

Thanks Kliska!

To you as well! Prayers,
K

(Man, I was typing fast on that one -- my meatloaf's about done!! :heh)

[Hope]

Hi Kliska, I realize your on your way out. I gotta run here in a minute as well. Maybe we can pick this up when you get back.

Blessings and have a safe and prosperous trip!

Hope