To those upset with the faithful that point out apostasy [Archive]

View Full Version : To those upset with the faithful that point out apostasy

Pages : [1] 2

Beth O

August 10th, 2007, 10:30 PM

First of all I would say, don't shoot the messenger. If you have evidence to dispute what the person has brought up in an article, fine.

I wanted to share this quote. Our two Pastors read the Church notes from the Way of Life ministry every Sunday before our service. The Church notes have the latest news and is regarding what is going on in the world and specifically apostasy. The quote below is at the end of the Church notes every Friday.

CONCLUSION: Friends in Christ, do not be discouraged by any of this. It is God's will that we know the
times (1 Chr. 12:32; Mat. 16:3) and that we be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. These things remind
us that the hour is very late, and we need to be ready for the coming of the Lord. Are you sure that you are born
again? Are you living for Christ day by day? “And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out
of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us
therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the
day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on
the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof” (Rom. 13:11-14).

firstlove

August 11th, 2007, 07:06 AM

true2yeshua

August 11th, 2007, 09:57 AM

HeIsEnough

August 11th, 2007, 10:06 AM

Seriously, no one of us has it all right, should we pick each other apart till there is nothing left? Or maybe we should be humble enough to know that we could be wrong too.

This is a very difficult topic.

For one, it automatically presumes the 'pointer-out-er' has no ax to grind, and they are not grinding it on purpose on the one in question. Two, what is being called to attention is an actual heretical teaching, or an apostate person (a little more difficult and dicey) Three it takes discernment to know if it is a systematic problem or a blip on the radar in that persons life, which relates back to two. Four, this is what happens when men get elevated. Five, this forum has an owner, so I assume it falls within the realm of control of that owner.

Beth O

August 11th, 2007, 11:02 AM

Apostasy 1) The public abandoning of a religious faith, especially Christianity, for another. 2) A similar abandoning of a doctrine or party. [from Latin from Greek apostasia, renunciation]

Apostate 1) One who has forsaken the faith, principles, or party, to which he before adhered; esp, one who has forsaken his religion for another; a pervert; a renegade. 2) One who, after having received sacred orders, renounces his clerical profession.

Are the ones you've chosen to receive your correction-truly apostate or do you merely disagree with the way they interpret scripture?

If say, your pet doctrine was OSAS-which I disagree with (for example), does that mean I should label you apostate?

Seriously, no one of us has it all right, should we pick each other apart till there is nothing left? Or maybe we should be humble enough to know that we could be wrong too.

OSAS I'm sure is already being discussed on another thread, so I'm not getting into that.

From the Way of Life Encyclopedia
End-time Apostasy Is a Bible Doctrine: New Testament prophecy describes two separate streams of "Christianity" operating side by side throughout the church age. First, there will be true apostolic churches, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail. They will be persecuted, hated, despised, yet they will continue century by century until Christ's return. The Lord Jesus promised His faithful ones: "Lo, I am with you alway, EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD" (Mt 28:20). Second, there will be apostate churches, which will increase in number and grow worse and worse as the centuries pass. Consider the following Scriptures - Mat 24:4,Mat 11,24; Act 20:29-30; 2Th 2:3-8; 1Tim 4:1-3; 2Tim 3:13; 2 Tim 4:3-4; 2Pet 2:1-3; Jude 1:3-4; Rev 17:1-18.

The parables of Christ in Matthew 13 depict the course of this present "church age," and they describe a progression of apostasy. The parable of the leaven, for example, depicts a woman putting leaven into three measures of meal, "till the whole was leavened." Leaven in Scripture stands for sin and error (1Cor 5:6; Gal 5:9). Thus the parable tells us that the error which was introduced by false teachers even during the days of the Apostles will gradually increase through the centuries until the entire religious system is leavened. The ultimate fulfillment of this is in Revelation 17.

The apostasy began during the lives of the Apostles and has steadily increased through the centuries. John wrote, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time" (1Joh 2:18). John taught that there will be a future antichrist, singular; but he is preceded by many antichrists, plural. We believe the antichrist, singular, refers to the man of sin who will rule the end-time kingdom described in Dan 9:1-11; Mat 24:15; 2Th 2:3-12; and Rev 13:1-18. The antichrists, plural, refer to all who reject apostolic truth in favor of satanic deception and man-made tradition. Thus the "antichrist" is both a man and a system; it is both one man, and many men. It is in this latter sense that the popes throughout history are identified with antichrist.

Another passage which teaches the same truth is 2Th 2:7-8. "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." In the days of the Apostles the "mystery of iniquity" was already working, and it will culminate in the promotion of the man of sin, the Wicked One, the Antichrist, who will assume the throne of this world for a brief span. We are told that the culmination of this will not occur until just prior to the return of Christ, because the Wicked One will be destroyed "with the brightness of his coming." The "mystery of iniquity" is that program of evil whereby the devil is attempting to corrupt the churches of Jesus Christ by sowing tares and apostasy. It is associated with "Mystery Babylon the Great" in Revelation 17.

We see the direct fulfillment of these prophecies in the Christian world today. It is evident in heretical bodies such as the Roman Catholic Church and the liberal World Council of Churches denominations, none of which are founded directly and exclusively upon the apostolic Faith or the apostolic church pattern. It is also evident in the ecumenical movement, which is calling for unity in diversity at the expense of Biblical truth and which is breaking down the walls of separation between truth and error.

WhitemoonG

August 11th, 2007, 01:03 PM

Firstlove

It goes without saying that "none of us has it all right," and that "maybe we should be humble enough to know that we could be wrong too."

What's the news in that? No disagreement here.

Is that therefore grounds to ignore all the scriptural admonitions about the dangers of false teachings and heresy?

Is that therefore grounds to refrain from raising QUESTIONS about someone or something borne of concerns that someone or something MIGHT present a real or potential problem?

In response to your inability or unwillingness to discuss some specifics, or answer some questions I presented for you, invited by your provocative comments, that could be helpful if you chose to do so, am I to conclude that I, and others here are "not of the spirit," and " carnal," etc., as you've maintained? Nobody has any right to caution or question anything, knowing only too well that we don't have everything right, and could be wrong?

Do you realize that your comments, when distilled down to the point, are the same old avoid attacking the argument or specifics, but judge and call names motif? Since I feel increasingly offended by this attitude you seem to have, on the behalf of others as much as for myself, and HAVE politely approached you with it, along with some questions, which you have REPEATEDLY IGNORED, is this the biblical model? Or is it another sidestep involving "we shouldn't pick everyone apart since nobody's always right or perfect?"

If that's the ultimate directive, why all the scripture admonitions about error, and contending for the faith, when the Lord knows full well that we are ALL flawed and certainly not sinless or ever possibly beyond reproach?

What kind of lofty spiritual plane do you exist on, that most of the rest of us, and certainly not me, could ever hope to aspire to?

firstlove

August 11th, 2007, 08:29 PM

I've already said that if you disagree with a point of doctrine-we should discuss it-of course, but this calling everyone who disagrees with you "apostate" or "false teacher"-is not at all Godly. Like Buzzardhut said....

"These threads are not meant to judge anyone's salvation, as only the Lord should do that, but
we are watchmen and should alert folks when teachers start going down dangerous paths.

It should not matter who is being singled out, but that if they are promoting these
dangerous teachings, then the Word of God should be upheld first over any favorite pastor, preacher, teacher, or denomination.

Post direct quotes from any preacher, teacher in question, not just a website exposing them but the actual words they are saying.

And post with scripture how the teaching is wrong in light of Biblical standards."

WhitemoonG

August 12th, 2007, 02:55 AM

Firstlove:

1. Your comments are absolutely nuts if you are going to claim this nonsense that I or we are calling anybody who disagrees with us over anything apostate.

NOT SO.

2. Certain individuals have been under discussion. Some are obvious apostates like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren. Others, like Beth Moore, have also been under discussion. This is based on HER OWN WRITTEN TEACHINGS WHICH WERE QUOTED, as well as a WIDELY CIRCULATED DVD on which she is extensively featured. HER COMMENTS on the DVD are quoted. A highly respected pastor, who maintains scrupulous fidelity to scriptures, or at least obviously strives very hard to in everything he writes, had a COMMENTARY about MOORE'S DOCUMENTED TEACHINGS, EXTENSIVELY REVIEWING HER OWN WORDS, and commented that this business of setting up, via this NEW SPIRITUALITY, two way conversations directly with God, is unbiblical and getting into dangerous territory. Everything of this is free, out in the open, well written with comparison to relevant scripture, and open for anyone to read, discuss and decide if they agree, disagree, or aren't yet sure. Nevertheless, the issue is important, is not frivolous, and was not presented in a destructive, capricious manner.

I also added to the thread my concern that when the DVD went public in spring 06, and MANY good faithful Christians were disturbed about her comments on it and participation, and her organization was deluged with concerns about it, Beth Moore immediately posted on her site (you know, the INTERNET) a lengthy message including statements claiming some ignorance of what the project she'd agreed to provide sound bites for, was really about, and stated some pretty clear annoyance about it, as though she'd been perhaps "used" a bit. Then she said, "I'm a Southern Baptist for cryin' out loud!" At the time, 17 months ago, I was a bit relieved, in that I'd seen how taken my wife and daughter were earlier with her teaching video series. As I stated earlier in the post that was deleted, that relief didn't last long, as despite her seeming disclaimer, she didn't ever really disavow supporting or teaching the things contained therein, and never withdrew her stated support of the DVD. It bothers me to this day about her, and I really don't know what one could consider it to be, other than disingenous.

This is all directly from her own internet site at the time. I have paper copies of her statement and follow up comments of hers in my paper files.

Since anything we or I say that is sourced on the internet, is something you don't trust or allow, despite knowing that what I just related is NOT MADE UP, Is derived DIRECTLY FROM BETH MOORE, I'm not going to waste any more time in providing you with web adresses or links. Track it down yourself. It's there, and it's true. What you make of it is up to you. To me, it SADLY suddenly didn't speak well of the character of the new ladies Bible teacher my wife and daughter were excited about and had enjoyed for 6 months.

This is all based on Moore's own teachings, which are document public record.

Pastor DeWaay's review is available on the internet. His spoken sermons and teaching sessions are also available on the internet.

This Rapture Ready is ON THE INTERNET.

PLEASE KNOCK IT OFF WITH THIS LAZY, CONVENIENT NONSENSE OF CONVENIENTLY IGNORING OR DISSING WHAT YOU DON"T LIKE, SIMPLY BECAUSE PART OF THE PRESENTATION CITES A SCRIPTURAL COMMENTARY FREELY AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET.

Of course there are all sorts of various and sundry things on the internet. Lots of bizarre garbage, lots of junk that tries to sound authoritative, or is made up lies and hit pieces, and fiction that is stated by someone as "fact" that suddenly is repeated thousands of times and becomes an "internet fact" that was always fiction. I know exactly what you and others are generally saying about being cautious with the internet. No kidding!

That said, it isn't, or at least shouldn't be the biggest obsession that something presented is on the internet. What do you think this business of providing links and sources is all about? Everybody does it throughout this entire site. It isn't the mere fact that a reference from the net is cites,

what matters is WHAT IT SAYS, WHY IT SAYS IT, and HOW VERIFIABLE the information and quotes are, as well as some reasonable impression as to the fairness of the context provided, and lack of overly manipulative "cherry picking" the quotes and data provided.

I certainly and completely agree with the restated policy of using the internet carefully, and referring to it carefully, checking it out first.

BUT, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED ALL ALONG HERE! The subject in question, the person in question, was quoted, with her stated teachings, the basis, the DVD is public record and available to all, and the Pastor's commentary (agree or disagree) was not pulled out of some internet sewer.

If you don't think the concerns or tentative conclusions about Beth Moore's contemplative prayer tangent are well founded, or are incomplete, or are wrong, or are unfair, or if you think the references FROM HER OWN MOUTH OR PEN don't convey what we think they do, fine.

But please demonstrate a little bit of respect, if possible, and explain WHY. It is very difficult to have a godly discussion with or respect someone like you, who can't or won't do that, but has no problem judging us, with broad irrelevant generalities and putdowns, and falsely accusing me and us of being into "Negativism theology," , of being "not of the spirit" of being "carnal." All you have to do is explain why you think the concerns, or details presented aren't vaid, and I"M ALL EARS. Having had a VERY POSITIVE and SUPPORTIVE opinion of Beth Moore for the first 6 months of even knowing she existed, I would love to find out that my concerns need not be.

Let's review: 1. Based on concerns from BETH MOORE's teachings, and things she appears on and endorses, and a very questionable response to pubic concern about the DVD, we raised CONCERNS about BETH MOORE's latest emphasis/method. This was done with RESPONSIBLE reference to sources, whatever anyone ultimately decides about the issue.

2. I stated twice, in posts 20 and 36, that I don't doubt her salvation. This was stated very clearly. The properly referenced concern raised has to do ONLY with what she's gotten into lately.

3. Despite that, there later occurs this big concern or anger over criticizing these people AND questioning their salvation, despite my stating clearly long before that, that questioning her salvation wasn't an issue. Obviously people like you get worked up over our stated concerns, and must not read them very carefully, but are more than able to generate unfounded accusations.

4. Your response to us raising concerns over Beth Moore in the thread (which was an APOSTASY section thread) involved little about the details, or stating why you think the concerns are overblown or misguided.

Your response was attacking us. We're just into tearing everybody down, we're just into "Theological negativity." This, after isn't what Jesus wants, and therefore you said how we were inquiring was not of the Holy Spirit, we are "carnal."

Let's state this again for you, and anyone reading this to digest clearly.

We, in the apostasy section, raise concerns, responsibly, about Beth Moore.

You, enter and don't address the concerns much,

But instead ATTACK, JUDGE, AND ACCUSE US. NEGATIVE. NOT OF THE SPIRIT. CARNAL.

We question Beth Moore. Nobody attacked you, but YOU ATTACK US.

I respond to being attacked in a very measured manner, mainly asking for you to explain your position, and also bring up some related questions and scriptures, including II John, hoping to get some informative or helpful clarification from you. NO RESPONSE.

I approach you a 2nd time, NOT because you don't seem to agree with me, but because you judged and accused US and then left, and I'm still also wanting to hopefully actually learn something from you beyond your judging and accusing.

In response to this, you ignored every question I asked you, most involving scripture, and presented a rather lame but IRRELEVANT commentary complaining that there is too much negativity and petty complaints about pastors and salaries and music in the Christian world.

All I could glean from that is that the concerns in this Apostasy thread about Beth Moore's latest foray are equivalent, in your mind, to petty complaints that the pastor should wear blue suits instead of black suits.

Summarizing, we raise concerns about Beth Moore's latest emphasis without questioning her salvation, you jump in and judge and unfairly accuse us personally, you DO NOT ANSWER requests to explain further your judgments and accusations toward us, you DO NOT ANSWER questions to you with additional scripture defending our initial concerns as not frivolous, or not without some basis in scripture.

Although I suspect I can now predict that you are going to somehow falsely claim that you've been the one being attacked all along, which is RIDICULOUS, you need to think very seriously about your uncalled for and meritless accusations, judgements of other brothers and sisters on this board, including me, that were the main reason this thread derailed. Nobody attacked you, but you judged and attacked us, refused to answer requests to clarify, refused to answer simple follow up questions based on scripture, which you STILL haven't done, after I approached you twice, you respond with irrelevant baloney that dumps further implied judgements, and refuse to answer a 3rd request to explain the accusations and answer the originally simple, non threatening questions posed to you.

I've done everything I can to approach you, or respond to your judgmental accusations,( that you and you alone decided to jump in with) fairly and in accordance with biblical directives.

We apparently have widely divergent opinions on the initial concerns that started this thread on Beth Moore. Fine.

Explain to me why you judge, accuse, infer rotten things, etc. and MAKE UP fiction over which to feel victimized about me and others here, and please explain to me why I should now, at this time, view your actions and conduct here as anything but REPREHENSIBLE, especially considering the phony spiritual pedestal you seemed to think you occupied as you judge and accuse us, who never said anything remotely like that against you.

With the thread now erased, that you jumped in and needlessly judged believers, I have no means to verify the truthfulness and accuracy of what is related, so I guess you are free to misrepresent and rewrite history as you will.

I cannot understand the lack of accountability here, which seems to consist ONLY of general reminders of things like stating and using references carefully and respectfully, of not questioning others salvation, etc.

I am flabbergasted and SICKENED with the clear inference that the turmoil from this thread involved failure to heed such, and nothing more.

This was NOT the case, and was NEVER the case! No doubt some conveniently feigned or assumed it was. Not so.

For anybody willing, I would appreciate a prayer or two to find how I can best serve the Lord, as God is my witness.

Buzzardhut

August 12th, 2007, 02:59 AM

Apostasy 1) The public abandoning of a religious faith, especially Christianity, for another. 2) A similar abandoning of a doctrine or party. [from Latin from Greek apostasia, renunciation]

Are the ones you've chosen to receive your correction-truly apostate or do you merely disagree with the way they interpret scripture?

If say, your pet doctrine was OSAS-which I disagree with (for example), does that mean I should label you apostate?

Seriously, no one of us has it all right, should we pick each other apart till there is nothing left? Or maybe we should be humble enough to know that we could be wrong too.
If someone teaches many ways to salvation you are obligated to expose their errors.

Ladybug

August 12th, 2007, 05:23 AM

Maybe we should just have a list of those deemed safe. Be a lot shorter and easier. :lol2