Support for pretrib rapture

[KissyLoves]

Chicken and Just-a-Servant:

You both hit the nail on the head for me! :hug

[Last Samurai]

It is interesting that most of the Church these days are not all THAT dogmatic about the Rapture question. The bulk of the people I know have now adhered to the "Pan-Mil" theory, which holds to the belief that "everything will pan out in the end as God wills it to". I hold very firmly against this notion, simply because God gave us His Word for a reason. Should we just ignore one of the most important prophecies for the Church and its ultimate promise? No way! It is a lazy man's way out as an excuse not to get caught up in the heated debate and pick a side.
In any case, when we look at what Paul said about people who hold funny ideas about the resurrection; either that it will not take place, had already taken place, or that the Church will be in the Day of the Lord (guys faking letters from Paul to Thessalonica), he calls these people deceivers, false prophets, and "handed them over to satan". If Paul was so adamant about the timing (in relation to world events) for the return of Christ for His Church, why should we be so accepting of others having "legitimate interpretations" regarding the Rapture?

I am not asking this as a rhetorical question.....I am sincerely asking how we handle people who hold to and preach a mid-post-prewrath Rapture? I know personally that my church is open to people holding any interpretation regarding the Rapture because there are "strong arguments on all sides of the debate". I fully disagree, but their reasoning is that they dont want the church to get in a big divide. That is understandable, because division is a terrible thing, seeing the state of the Church today. But even so, does that warrant teaching the acceptance of other interpretations when Paul clearly felt so strongly against people who taught Mid-Post-No Resurrection type prophecies?

I feel as though I am stuck between holding to the true Word of God and causing division. :idunno

What do you guys think?

I think you would be causing a fight amongst the Lord's children with this attitude. Why not direct your energy towards the unsaved? :idunno The only person that cares which Christian is "right" is the prideful one. Let it go and work on saving LOST souls, not arguing with a brother/sister in Christ about a NON-SALVATION issue.

[WVBORN56]

The two post tribulation folks I know are both high IQ guys. One is a Pastor and the other is an engineer. They both love the Lord and are people I consider very committed believers. They both are from a reform theology mindset and see the rapture and the second coming as one and the same event.

Although I strongly disagee with them on this point and even more so because they see present day Israel as a secular country and not as fulfilled prophecy. In other words they believe in replacement theology but they also both do not like this term because they see it as a pejorative terminology.

So, yes they are absolutely saved but I am also convinced that becuase they are not "blessing Israel" they will minimally not participate at some level with eternal rewards and possibly miss out on earthly blessings as well. I'm basing my conclusion on the verse from Genesis. "Those who curse Israel will be cursed"

On the other hand the Pastor I believe will have many other rewards based on leading many and discipleng many into the faith.

[Mommytoa3rdgradeboy]

Look, I am super psyched for the Rapture, just as everyone else here is...but IMHO I don't think its something to get "up in arms" about when other born-again believers disagree. If you want, sit down with them and show them the biblical evidence and state your case/the truth, and listen to them as they do the same (despite it not being the truth), and then talk about what you've both learned from each other and how the rapture has much more evidence than any other position; it has worked for people I know and once for myself--once people actually can see all of the evidence for the Rapture in front of them, it can really make them think and see the truth. Sometimes people will honestly tell you they need to pray about it once you talk to them about it, but let them and trust that God will reaffirm what you've told them.

I am in a bible study group in college that believes in the Trib/End Times as we've laid it out here on RR (the order of chronological events, etc), but the rapture is simply moved around. Some believe in pre-trib, others mid-trib, some post-trib, but they believe in a rapture of some kind. We've each laid out our cases with evidence and we've come to the conclusion that if (well, when) the rapture happens pre-trib, it will be a pleasant surprise to those people who believed otherwise. It isn't something that should be fought about and cause divisions within churches or bible studies or even families. We still study the order of events because the mid and post-tribbers believe they need to know this information to survive and follow events, and the pre-tribbers study it so they can let people know what's going to happen if they are left behind.

For my family of unbelievers, they won't listen to anything about it, so I've just told them "Look, if I and millions of people disappear one day, it was the Rapture" and that's all I can do for them. Same goes for (born-again) Christians who simply believe Christ is coming back one day to judge the living and the dead and that's it--no Rapture or Trib or anything. These people will be Raptured as well and will experience this pleasant surprise. It doesn't cause major arguments or divisions and I don't believe it should, although it can mess up families like mine who are mixed with some (or only one) believer/s and some unbelievers.

This is just my little 2 cents, but I just thought I'd put it out there....

....but it doesn't mean I'm not PSYCHED for the Rapture! :yeah :rapture


Good post! That's AWESOME that you are involved in a bible study w/ other college students!!!!!

To the OP: Not sure if this will help or not, but my preacher preached a sermon on the 'water into wine' issue and although he used to believe that the wine was "real" wine" he no longer thinks that. He did say that he may very well have been "real" wine, and he is open to that possiblilty. He did presents BOTH sides to argument of that. Although this issue isn't the same, I think the concept is similar. My suggestion is that perhaps your preacher could present both (or more) sides of the pre-trib. rapture to the congregation. He can and should express HIS personal thoughts and he can also say that there are many other well-versed and good Christian people who do/don't believe in the pre-trib. rapture. I don't think IMO, that they should 'make' people choose sides in this matter. IMO, prophecy is very important, but I think (and I could be completely wrong) that as long as the core gospel is being taught and nothing is added/taken away from the salvation message, that maybe this issue could be left alone.

Keep in mind there ARE lots of biblican Christians who don't hold a pre-trib. rapture view and I don't think they are any less saved than those who hold a different view. JUST my opinion, and for the records, my church (including me) holds to a pre-trib. rapture.

[rescuedbyChrist]

So, if He is not talking about the Rapture in 24, then Ch. 25 must not be referring to the Rapture either.

I think He is talking about two different things in Ch. 24. I don't believe that people will just be living as normal in the days of Noah after the Rapture and certainly NOT when the AC is in charge.

I believe that thru vs. 35 He is talking about the End of Days and Israel. Then, I think He switches and is talking about the Rapture in the remainder of 24. If anyone after the Rapture knows anything about the scriptures, then they would know when to expect Jesus to come back. He will still take some by surprise, but not like the Rapture. He immediately talks about the Ten Virgins after what I think is Him talking about the Rapture. Then, He seems to go back to talking about the end judgment. I think He is talking about the End Times as a whole.

Disclaimer: Of course, I'm only human and my guess is as good as yours. Only the Father knows. Right?

[Seated]

In the days of Noah who were the ones taken? Were they not taken into judgement? Who were the ones left? Wasn't Noah left and saved through the judgement? Enoch is a picture of the church who was taken before the Flood to be with God and of the Rapture of the church. Noah is a picture of the Jewish remnant believers after the Rapture. Enoch was saved or taken "out of" the tribulation, and Noah was saved through the tribulation...

Excellent points. The preciseness of God's Word makes seemingly hard passages easier to understand when we pay attention. The "he who endures to the end shall be saved" a few passages earlier indicates that the elect are Jews, not the Church. As far as the taken goes, those who were taken by the flood were the unrighteous, not the Righteous. The same will apply to the unrighteous at the end of the trib, as they are taken in death. And the nonparable which follows those verses indicates that very same thing:


Matthew 24:50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect {him} and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Taken literally, the separation judgments at the end of the tribulation period are a gruesome scene. Perhaps cut by an angel's sickle?:


Revelation 14:17. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered {the clusters from} the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

[Trust&Obey]

I have also struggled with this passage and different prophecy teachers interpret it differently. I now believe that those taken will be the unrighteous souls at the end of the tribulation.

Only those who will survive to live during the Millennial Kingdom will be the surviving Jews, the surviving tribulation saints and those nations and individuals that treated Israel with kindness during the tribulation. Basically, only the righteous that did not take the mark.

All others will be taken and killed. They will be resurrected at the end of the MK for the judgment of the unrighteous at the Great White Throne Judgment. This judgment will determine their punishment - it will already be determined that those that go to this judgment will be cast into the lake of fire. It will be made clear that their punishment is a just punishment and that there will be different degrees of punishment.

PS - looks like several have jumped in with similar responses, but I'll go ahead and add mine.

[Rhon]

Hi all :)

I tend to believe that Matthew 24 does mention the rapture. Besides all the other comments people have made, there is one more strong idea that the rapture is in view.

When people start taking the mark of the beast, they begin turning in their own mothers, daughters, etc. to the government if they do not have the mark. It is hard for me to believe that someone with the mark is working in a field next to someone without the mark, or someone with the mark is in bed with someone without the mark, etc.

Also we have to consider that if you don't have the mark, you can't buy or sell anything, which also should mean you can't get work in a mill, or in a field, etc, unless it is your own and nobody from the government knows about it and beheads you.

To me, the mark of the beast will separate the believers from the non-believers long before the second coming, but the rapture will be the first to separate them.

Love Bruce

Exactly!!! :thumb

[mom211]

What I find difficult is my dh's opinion that we are going to go thru the tribulation. It's all doom & gloom about how bad it is going to be and how those who are waiting for the rapture will fall away from the faith when things get worse. It's a constant stream of distressing negative talk. I've told him we aren't going to debate this, but merely talking about the news sets him off. Even a simple lunch out went bad when he brought up more distressing comments. All his worry makes me feel like our family is a burden to him.

[Chicken5516]

What I find difficult is my dh's opinion that we are going to go thru the tribulation. It's all doom & gloom about how bad it is going to be and how those who are waiting for the rapture will fall away from the faith when things get worse. It's a constant stream of distressing negative talk. I've told him we aren't going to debate this, but merely talking about the news sets him off. Even a simple lunch out went bad when he brought up more distressing comments. All his worry makes me feel like our family is a burden to him.

Is he Born Again? Sorry you are going through this! :hug

Jesus does not create fear. There is nothing to fear if you are Born Again. If you died tomorrow, you go to Heaven and see the Lord face to face. If you are alive when the Rapture occurs, you will get snatched away and meet Jesus in the air with His Saints. The Bride WILL NOT go through the Tribulation. Sure...things might get a little 'ruff' before the Rapture, but God is our Protector and He takes care of His Sheep!! :yeah