Support for pretrib rapture

[rescuedbyChrist]

If you are referring to the virgins in Matthew 25:1-13, these are the "bridesmaids", so to speak, who will attend the wedding supper (after the trib, on the earth)... they are not talking about the virgin (singular) Bride of Christ.

Luke 12:36-37 is a passage which shows what will occur "when He will return from the wedding" (with His Bride, a "week" later [i.e. 7 years]) for the wedding supper, or wedding feast. Those in the trib who endure to the end ("watching" in faith) will be welcomed and will enjoy the feast as guests. "He shall gird Himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them." They are the virgins (the bridesmaids), but these are not the Church, who will have been with Christ during those intervening years. :hat

There is a good thread somewhere around here that covers this pretty well. :)

But, when you study about the jewish wedding, they attend the bride. And, the bridegroom comes to get the bride not the "bridesmaids." So, this really doesn't make sense. I think the virgins represent the Church. I believe the foolish virgins are the ones that attend church but aren't really saved. Who else could they be? They were waiting. They were thinking He was coming for them. Just as He says some will say "Lord, Lord". They truly believe He is the Lord. They just haven't given themselves to Him. They didn't just run out of oil, they didn't bring any. Think to whom He is speaking. To His followers. No one else was present. And, think, Judas was present- not a true follower. He is speaking to the Church. So, if we are to be taken in a rapture, knowing about "The End of the End" doesn't pertain to us. We will be gone already.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in a Rapture. However, some of these verses come the closest to talking me out of it.

And, in I Thes. 5:1-11, Paul talks about the day of the Lord like it is the rapture, not the judgment. We keep talking about peace and safety being a sign of the times. And, he is talking to the Church. So, why does he call it the day of the Lord?

This can really confuse you.

[just-a-servant]

Thank you all for responding.

I see that there are some varying opinions out there, but after sitting on it for a few days, I feel that being so dogmatic about being Pre-Trib is probably going to cause more harm than good. Condemning people for their interpretation of scripture is not my place. I fully believe we will all have to be held accountable to our Lord Jesus at the Bema Seat of Christ in regards to how we handled the Word of Truth, and for those that take people's Blessed Hope away will certainly regret their errant teachings at that time. However, I am not the judge. Romans 14 is hitting me hard right now:

Romans 14:4


Being a servant for Christ, I know that He will make me stand, as well as all the other servants out there, regardless of their interpretation on the Rapture. So I have decided that when situations arise where there is an argument over the Rapture, I will simply state my case and base it on the clear scriptures, and leave it at that. If I stand firm on the Word of God, I am convinced that the Holy Spirit will guide me in my discussion and help me show them the truth in love. Should they not choose to believe the truth, I have to let that go because my job is not to make them believe. My job, and all of our jobs, is to show them the truth and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. But you better believe that if that person is teaching their errant doctrine to a fellow brother or sister that may not know any better, I will be quick to refute their assertions, at least to show that brother or sister that there IS hope: That hope is in Christ, that we are no longer under condemnation, and that we WILL be rescued from the wrath to come.


Seated:

The reason I said that being Pan-Mil is a lazy man's way out is because they are purposefully and willfully neglecting parts of scripture. If it was not important to know and understand end-times events, why was there an entire book written about it? Why did Jesus go through all the trouble to show John the future, have him write it down and disperse it to the churches, just so they end up saying "It doesnt matter if we know how it happens because it will happen the way God wants it to happen"? Why would Paul have written two letters primarily centered around the return of Jesus for the Church (Thessalonians)?

As for the Pretribbers who stay quiet, I have no problem with that because they have studied and picked a side. If they dont want to be vocal about it to avoid arguments, I can understand that. But to say that ANY part of the Bible doesnt matter is blasphemy. The Gospel of Jesus cannot be parted into tiny tidbits where we can pick and choose which sections we like and throw out the sections we dont. It's one big package deal. The entire Gospel should be studied carefully and with prayer for discernment. The Gospel is the Gospel. The Gospel without a part of the Gospel is not "the Gospel" at all, which is why we should be so adamant against the Emergent Church who loves to change the Gospel to fit current societal trends and "tickle the ears".

To be clear, I dont think you feel this way.....otherwise, why would you be posting on a Pre-Trib board? :lol2 . I just think we have to be very careful not to get lazy with or apply human understanding to the Gospel. God is the perfect creator of the Gospel.....I, being a mere human (and VERY imperfect at that!) sure wouldn't want to be caught judging which parts of it are useful and which parts need not be given attention.

I agree with you to a point about Pretribbers being the least concerned. This is true as it is related to the Rapture itself, but if you take away someone's Blessed Hope, they will live differently prior to the Rapture. They will live expecting to see the Man of Lawlessness and will prepare for going through the Tribulation instead of focusing on and trusting in the Lord. This can lead to worry, anxiety, and all sorts of negative things. But looking for the Lord's Coming for us before the Hour of Trial keeps our priorities straight and being about His business, lest we get caught up in the happenings of this world. Just my opinion though....

Well said, good and faithful servant. :thumb

IMHO,
just-a-servant

[Amber Lynne]

I can only assume that beating them about the head and shoulders with a blunt object is right out.


Hope that helps. :)

[HumbleServant]

Responding to the OP.

First off, I do not believe rapture timing is a salvation issue. Yes I do believe its important, but, let's face it. IF you're saved, whether you've heard of the rapture or not, whether you think it happens, first, middle or last, you are going when the Lord calls. Now that we have that out of the way...

Scripture gives the perfect answer as to how we should teach....

AMP version says it very well
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome (fighting and contending). Instead, he must be kindly to everyone and mild-tempered [preserving the bond of peace]; he must be a skilled and suitable teacher, patient and forbearing and willing to suffer wrong.
2Ti 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],


The main point I'm stressing here is gentleness, patience, and kindness in teaching. I do believe the Pre-trib view is accurate, but Scripture also teaches that Love is more important than any gift we can have, including knowledge. I say the most important aspect of the Rapture, is that Jesus IS COMING BACK FOR US. I'm willing to unite in that truth with my non-pre-trib brothers and sisters. They'll still love me when we're on the way up in the pre-trib rapture, and I say "I Told ya so!!!" :lol2

[Philippians1:21]

And, in I Thes. 5:1-11, Paul talks about the day of the Lord like it is the rapture, not the judgment. We keep talking about peace and safety being a sign of the times. And, he is talking to the Church. So, why does he call it the day of the Lord?

This can really confuse you.

Paul is not speaking of the rapture here. Paul is speaking of the day of the Lord which is after the rapture.

In the NT the day of the Lord occurs only in Acts 2:20, 1 Thess 5:2, 2 Thess 2:2 (RV), 2 Peter 3:10 and Rev 6:17. A careful study of all these passages indicates that the day of The Lord describes conditions on earth after the rapture of the church. It is solely the time of judgement on Israel and the nations.

[Seated]

Seated:

...As for the Pretribbers who stay quiet, I have no problem with that because they have studied and picked a side. If they dont want to be vocal about it to avoid arguments, I can understand that...

...To be clear, I dont think you feel this way.....otherwise, why would you be posting on a Pre-Trib board? :lol2 ...

I agree with you to a point about Pretribbers being the least concerned. This is true as it is related to the Rapture itself, but if you take away someone's Blessed Hope, they will live differently prior to the Rapture...

First, I wasn't painting with a broad brush. While I am certifiably pre-trib (although not mainstream) I understand there are those who haven't been at it for 35+ years like I have and (like me) haven't yet got to examine every aspect of the position. And I know there is still more for me to learn. Some of these will be searchers who are testing their pre-trib position against non-pretribbers to see if they can counter effectively. I have also tested the way in which I hold the position and found it very useful.

In regards to why I post here, usually it is because I see something which is causing pre-tribbers to hold their position without ample Scriptural support, or when I see non-pretribbers who are abusing their privilege to post here. Otherwise you are right. I have pretty much achieved all the peace which I believe one should derive from being pre-trib and are holding to that Blessed Hope with all the fervor I can muster.

We will have to part company when it comes to equating pre-trib with the Gospel. There was no promise of a live saint rapture to Abraham, who believed the same Gospel you and I heard. I have always recognized pre-trib as a theory. I still believe it is, but have studied it enough to confidently say that it is the most probable of all the theories presented about end times events. Believing or not believing that does not change one's position in Jesus Christ one iota.

It remains important for all of us to remember that the same Price was paid for all of us. In my view that Price remains the same for a pre-wrath or post-trib brother or sister as it does for a pre-tribber. I will treat them all accordingly.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

But, when you study about the jewish wedding, they attend the bride. And, the bridegroom comes to get the bride not the "bridesmaids." So, this really doesn't make sense. I think the virgins represent the Church. I believe the foolish virgins are the ones that attend church but aren't really saved. Who else could they be? They were waiting. They were thinking He was coming for them. Just as He says some will say "Lord, Lord". They truly believe He is the Lord. They just haven't given themselves to Him. They didn't just run out of oil, they didn't bring any. Think to whom He is speaking. To His followers. No one else was present. And, think, Judas was present- not a true follower. He is speaking to the Church. So, if we are to be taken in a rapture, knowing about "The End of the End" doesn't pertain to us. We will be gone already.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in a Rapture. However, some of these verses come the closest to talking me out of it.

And, in I Thes. 5:1-11, Paul talks about the day of the Lord like it is the rapture, not the judgment. We keep talking about peace and safety being a sign of the times. And, he is talking to the Church. So, why does he call it the day of the Lord?

This can really confuse you.

I agree with Philippians1:21 (above) where he says that the phrase "Day of the Lord" is referring to the tribulation period of judgment, and Paul says this to the Church, in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, "But ye are not in darkness that that day [the Day of the Lord, the trib] should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of the light, and children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." (so we won't be entering that time period of judgment).

I know it can seem a little confusing. :) But He will be "coming" for them, too, at the end of the trib. There will be wise and foolish, then as now. But the difference is that THEY will have to "maintain the oil", which many of them will not do. Hence this warning to them, in Matthew 24.

We, of this Church age, are SEALED with the Holy Spirit, but they will be operating more like the Old Testament era, where the Holy Spirit "came upon them", but could also leave (as David describes, after his incident with Bathsheba, for example, in Psalm 51:10-11, "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.")

Matthew 24:9, I think, shows that He was talking to "representatives of Israel" in the whole chapter. It says, "And ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake." (Later, in Matthew 24:15, He says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...") Does He mean those few "disciples that came to Him privately"... or the Church (which hadn't been formed yet)? No. He's referring to the Jewish nation, and talking about a future time, the tribulation period, at "the end of the age"... (the age of law they were living in, and that has seven years left to go, yet).

In Matthew 24:33, He continues, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." The whole context is about how Israel should be watching and be ready for His Second Coming (watching in faith and filled with the oil of the Holy Spirit... for they won't be sealed). We, the Church, ARE READY, by virtue of our being IN CHRIST... sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. There is no chance of our being "cut asunder and [appointed the] portion with the hypocrites, [where] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth", as that whole passage concludes, in Matthew 24:50-51.

Hope my post isn't too choppy... I know I've put several ideas in there, sort of hodge-podge. :hehee

Oh, and by the way, Matthew 25:10NASB says, "and those [virgins/bridesmaids] who were ready went in with Him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut." (i.e. after the trib, at His Second Coming.)

[rescuedbyChrist]

I agree with Philippians1:21 where he says that the phrase "Day of the Lord" is referring to the tribulation period of judgment, and Paul says this to the Church, "but ye are not in darkness that that day [the Day of the Lord, the trib] should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of the light, and children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." (so we won't be entering that time period of judgment).

I know it can seem a little confusing. :) But He will be "coming" for them, too, at the end of the trib. There will be wise and foolish, then as now. But the difference is that THEY will have to "maintain the oil", which many of them will not do. Hence this warning to them, in Matthew 24.

We, of this Church age, are SEALED with the Holy Spirit, but they will be operating more like the Old Testament era, where the Holy Spirit "came upon them", but could also leave (as David describes, after his incident with Bathsheba, for example, in Psalm 51:10-11, "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.")

Matthew 24:9, I think, shows that He was talking to "representatives of Israel" in the whole chapter. It says, "And ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake." (Later, in Matthew 24:15, He says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...") Does He mean those few "disciples that came to Him privately"... or the Church (which hadn't been formed yet)? No. He's referring to the Jewish nation, and talking about a future time, the tribulation period, at "the end of the age"... (the age of law they were living in, and that has seven years left to go, yet).

In Matthew 24:33, He continues, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." The whole context is about how Israel should be watching and be ready for His Second Coming (watching in faith and filled with the oil of the Holy Spirit... for they won't be sealed). We, the Church, ARE READY, by virtue of our being IN CHRIST... sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. There is no chance of our being "cut asunder and [appointed the] portion with the hypocrites, [where] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth", as that whole passage concludes, in Matthew 24:50-51.

Hope my post isn't too choppy... I know I've put several ideas in there, sort of hodge-podge. :hehee


Your beliefs sound good too. But, I still tend to believe He was talking about believers. The ten were virgins, pure, just as the Church was to be. The Jews are not. Remember, they have already been married and they committed adultery. God is going to take them back. So, they are not virgins. I also believe that although they were Jewish, the disciples were followers first and therefore Jesus was speaking to them as believers.

Yes, the oil is the Holy Spirit, which Israel does not have. Right? Plus, Israel does not recognize Jesus as Lord. These that were waiting were expecting the Lord. They were expecting to be admitted. The Jews are not.

I think I just believe that since the rapture is imminent and we continue to look at all these signs of the day of judgment, that as soon as we are taken out of here everything will be unleashed. So, I feel He is talking about both events. Paul even speaks of them both and tells us to keep watching so it doesn't surprise us.

Boy, I can't wait to sit down with Him and ask Him to explain it all to me.:yeah

[ClosetLady]

note: one can pinpoint the precise date of the Second Coming by counting 3.5 years from the Abomination of Desolation--Jesus comes in triumph with the saints (the Bride) on the Day of the Lord (Second Coming). We don't know the date of the Abomination of Desolation yet because the Rapture hasn;t happneded and the Tribn hasn't begun.

The rapture date is a day only the Father knows and will reveal to the Son. Nothing has to happen before it, no events must be in place.

God is so good--he promised to keep us out of the Trib and He has still has given signposts for those who go through the Trib to be able to know the end (if they are paying attention).

[rescuedbyChrist]

Paul is not speaking of the rapture here. Paul is speaking of the day of the Lord which is after the rapture.

In the NT the day of the Lord occurs only in Acts 2:20, 1 Thess 5:2, 2 Thess 2:2 (RV), 2 Peter 3:10 and Rev 6:17. A careful study of all these passages indicates that the day of The Lord describes conditions on earth after the rapture of the church. It is solely the time of judgement on Israel and the nations.

Oh, I totally agree with you on this. I just think it begins immediately after we are raptured. I think the signs leading up refer to all of it. I think that is why we are on this board because we can see all these signs and know that our exit is imminent. Right?:yeah