Support for pretrib rapture

[Philippians1:21]

My Matthew Henry Commentary does not teach this as taken to judgment but that it is the Rapture. Hal Lindsey teaches it is about the Rapture. I'm going to see what John MacArthur teaches.

Where are you all getting this teaching from?

I have studied this in great depth and saught reference from early dispensational writers J N Darby and William Kelly. I have no literature that agrees with your interpretation and I am well stocked in books.

I dislike Matthew Henrys commentarys, he has some strange interpretations as far as im concerned and I also disagree with certain of Hal lindseys teachings, I tend not to pay any attention to either.

[Philippians1:21]

well each bowl takes out 1/3 of something, vegitation, water, and population (man andd animal), mountains will fall into the sea causing all kinds of havic and the outer Islands will affected..life experience tells us how the Islands will be taken out..the mountians falling into the seas can cause all kinds of senomi's, title waves..then there's the super volcano's in The USA. The Earrthquake falt in California and one not many folks know about..the one on the eastern sea board wich runs straight thru the Piedmont in the Charlotte, Salisbury, Winston Salem area of NC..if thathappens the entire Eastern sea coast will go..the super Volcano in Yellowstone will take out anything the earthquakes on the western/eastern coast don't take out..not to mention the fires, wars (nuklear or otherwise)..and of course the pestulences (manmade or otherwise)..and starvation..and we must remember what Jesus himself said..if those days were not shortened noone would be left alive on the planet..so yes..this will affect the whole earth and it's population..but Jesus also said..but for the elects sake..those days will be shortened..

Wow... you are being rather specific, I know of no prophecy that states anything about the USA, California, Yellowstone etc.

Could you provide scripture that states all these areas will be directly affected?

[rescuedbyChrist]

Someone else gave the passage in Luke 17:33-37 - a very similar passage, but which ends with "one shall be taken, and the other left. 'Where Lord?' [where taken?] And He said unto them, 'Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.'"

BUT, there are two bodies we are talking about in this circumstance. One was taken (if it is the Rapture, they are glorified) and one is left in a body left to judgment. I've never heard of vultures attacking the ones in judgment. Where is that described? But I do see where the vultures will feast on the dead bodies. The one that is left is symbolically dead.

I just did a study on Revelation and there is nothing like this in it where the judged will be taken one by one. Remember the angels will gather them together and they will be separated from the group of believers. But, in the instance of the Rapture, we'll all be going about our work and be taken away all of a sudden.

We don't know what it will be like after the Rapture. I really don't believe people will be going about like nothing happened. I just don't see it. Families will be torn apart. The Jews are going to be running from the trouble after the 3 1/2 years and this "so called taken" that you are referring to would happen after that. I seriously doubt many Gentiles will be saved. Remember the delusion? The time for the Gentiles is now if they want to be saved. The Trib is for Israel.

We can't say that life will be as normal because right now it isn't even normal anymore. I just don't buy into this taken to judgment. This is only one place that it speaks of it so I think those that are believing in it are misunderstanding. Otherwise, some other parts would speak of it like the Rapture that is indicated in several areas.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

RescuedbyChrist: Where are you all getting this teaching from?

Have you read Jack Kelley's comments on Matthew 24 that Steve53 (I think) posted earlier in this thread? Here is the link again (it's very good):

http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/the-three-questions-of-matt-24/

(take note of his last paragraph, in light of all he has written here) :hat

[rescuedbyChrist]

I have studied this in great depth and saught reference from early dispensational writers J N Darby and William Kelly. I have no literature that agrees with your interpretation and I am well stocked in books.

I dislike Matthew Henrys commentarys, he has some strange interpretations as far as im concerned and I also disagree with certain of Hal lindseys teachings, I tend not to pay any attention to either.

And so, are you saying that J N Darby teaches this? I have no literature that agrees with your interpretation. I've even been searching the internet.

Oh well. Interesting. I guess it really is of no consequence to me anyway. I won't be here then.:yeah

[katt]

Wow... you are being rather specific, I know of no prophecy that states anything about the USA, California, Yellowstone etc.

Could you provide scripture that states all these areas will be directly affected?

The lack of Bible Prohecy about America in end times or otherwise makes the point for me..it tells me..there is no powerful America to speak of in the end times..where is it?..part of the 10 kingdoms?..fighting a civil war?..trying to stay alive each man for himself thru the worse depression in our history?..or are we merely trying to clean up a horrible mess created by the many judgments coming on the earth..remember the Bible says the whole earth will feel the judgements..

[gzusrulzme]

I understand how difficult it can be discussing the view that we hold with others. I recently had to completely stop a bible study class I was teaching (about the "signs of the times" and the the prophecy of Christ return) because some of the people attending (christians!) could not get past their differences. Also, my *former* pastor recently said to the congregation (we were studying Matthew 24) that the rapture was simply made up 70 years ago by men. I left and haven't been back. My family, thankfully, do believe the way that I do.

[Philippians1:21]

And so, are you saying that J N Darby teaches this? I have no literature that agrees with your interpretation. I've even been searching the internet.

Oh well. Interesting. I guess it really is of no consequence to me anyway. I won't be here then.:yeah

I have all of his writings and I can assure you he teaches this as well as all the original dispensational writers.


Below is John Macarthurs take, he agrees with me and acceptedinthebeloved.


And then He gets very specific in verse 40 and 41. "Then shall two be in the field, one shall be taken the other left. Two grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken and the other left." The word "one" in verse 40 is in masculine in gender. The one in verse 41 is feminine in gender. That means verse 40 speaks of a man in the field, two men in the field, one taken, one left. Verse 41 of women, two women grinding at the mill. One taken and the other left. The man's task in that particular agricultural part of the world in that time was to be in the field and the women were there with the stone to mill, grinding that which was harvested by the men. So, it's just life as usual. And in the midst of the routine of life, one shall be taken.

What do we mean "taken"? I've heard people say this means the Rapture. You can't bring the Rapture in here. This is long after that. This is talking about taken in judgment. Go back to verse 39. "Till the cataclysm came and took them away." It's based on that imagery. It's based on that picture of the flood sweeping men away into death. Two are going to be in the field when that final devastating flood of fire comes. And one is taken in judgment. Two at the mill and one is taken in judgment. And the other left...the other left...what are they left for? They're left to go into what? Into the Kingdom. And they become those who populate the Millennial Kingdom. They are the redeemed. So you'll have people on the job. Some will be believers and some will be unbelievers. The unbelievers will be swept away and the believers will be preserved.

By the way, that separation process is described in detail in the judgment of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31 to 46, where He takes the goats on the one hand and sends them into everlasting punishment. His sheep on the other hand and gives them the Kingdom. So they are left. Very important. They are left for the Kingdom. So it is this that we have to keep in mind. When the millennial Kingdom comes and begins, the people who will be left to go into it will be believers who were not swept away in the judgment of all the ungodly. So the Kingdom on earth, the millennial Kingdom will be populated by those believers who have lived through the reign of terror of the Antichrist and he has not destroyed them. They're still alive when Christ comes. Christ sweeps away in a holocaust of judgment all the ungodly. But the godly that still remain and are alive will go into His eternal...rather, into His millennial Kingdom to populate that Kingdom. So that Kingdom is populated then by physical beings, real people like we are who've lived through Antichrist's reign of terror, who believed in the truth of the gospel and were not destroyed. Maybe some of them even believed at the last moment.

[Philippians1:21]

The lack of Bible Prohecy about America in end times or otherwise makes the point for me..it tells me..there is no powerful America to speak of in the end times..where is it?..part of the 10 kingdoms?..fighting a civil war?..trying to stay alive each man for himself thru the worse depression in our history?..or are we merely trying to clean up a horrible mess created by the many judgments coming on the earth..remember the Bible says the whole earth will feel the judgements..

More from John Macarthur


There will be worldwide clear signs that the whole thing is coming apart. And there will be preachers of righteousness, the hundred and forty-four thousand, the two witnesses of Revelation 11, the redeemed host of Gentiles from all over the world of Revelation 7. And they will be enhanced by the gospel preached by the angel that preaches the everlasting gospel all over the globe. They will hear the message but they will not believe it, they will not believe it until they are literally washed away in the ultimate holocaust of judgment in the Second Coming. They'll come up with all kinds of reasons to mock and scoff and laugh and ridicule. And if they were that wicked in the day of Noah, they will be more wicked in the day of the coming of the Son of Man.

Now look what it says. They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Now those aren't sins. Eating and drinking are not sins and marrying and giving in marriage are not sins. Marrying refers to the people who get married, giving in marriage refers to the families who give their young people to be married.

What it means is life went on as usual, right? I mean, it just means they just went through the routine. They just lived as if nothing would ever change. They totally disregarded what was going on. They didn't see its simplications. They kept on eating in Noah's day and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage as if there would never be an end. So eating and drinking, that's personal routine. Marrying and giving in marriage, that's family routine, the social activity. They just went through the cycles of normal personal family and business enterprise, life as usual, just went through the routine. They tried to adjust a little bit to this character Noah and what he was saying, but life went on as usual. And that's exactly what will happen in the Tribulation.

[sirgak]

Curious to what Jesus meant by this however: 37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered." Since Jesus used parables so much.

OK. In all fairness, I rewatched the video. I highly love Hal Lindsey for a special reason: I came to faith in Jesus Christ through his book, The Late Great Planet Earth. That makes him my spiritual "dad."

Hal made a very interesting point. He pointed out that if this is talking about the sheep and the goats (ie the nations that made it through the Tribulation's 7 years), then we will essentially have both believer AND unbeliever "taken." The "sheep" (believers) go to His right, and enter the Millennial Kingdom. The "goats" (unbelievers, every one of whom have the 666 Mark) go to His left, and are sent to Hell, and do not enter the kingdom.

To have a situation where one is taken and the other left, almost surely points to some "taking" where one person is preferred, but the other is not. It CAN'T be the sheep and goats, because as already shown, BOTH sides get taken at that judgment. By default, that leaves only one other "taking" recorded in Scripture, one that all over the globe it happens so fast that some people will be doing stuff during the daylight, and others will be sleeping during the nighttime, when it happens. That points overwhelmingly to the Rapture.

Upon further reflection, some people object to the Rapture being here, saying that Paul called the Rapture a Mystery, so it wasn't revealed yet, so Matt 24 couldn't be talking about something that wasn't revealed yet, and wouldn't be for some years until when Paul would write about it.

However, if we look at the "Mystery" of the Rapture as described in 1 Cor 15, we find something most interesting. The context of nearly the entire chapter is the resurrection of the dead. Paul writes that some are saying there is no resurrection of the dead. Paul argues that if we aren't going to be raised, then neither can Jesus have been raised, and we're all hopelessly lost in our sins. However, Christ was raised from the dead, and so will we also be raised. Then Paul writes those famous words, Behold, I show you a mystery..."

We need to rightly divide the Word of Truth. The "Mystery" is NOT that there would BE a Rapture; rather, the "Mystery" is that, along with dead believers being brought back to life (ie the corruptible being raised incorruptible), which Paul had been writing about through nearly all chapter 15, there would also be LIVING believers who would be raised into immortal life (ie the mortal shall put on immortality) without having to die first. This is what the new thing was that Paul was revealing.

Let me rephrase that in other words. The FACT of the Rapture is not what the Mystery is. Throughout Scripture, Old and New Testament, believers were told about a resurrection. People knew there was going to be a resurrection of the dead. The new thing Paul was revealing, was that there would also be a resurrection of the LIVING!

Got it? In context, the "Mystery" of the Rapture in 1 Cor 15 is NOT about WHEN it would happen, but rather about WHO would be in it, both the dead AND the living.

That "Mystery" aspect of the Rapture does not interfere with the revealing of the Rapture to the disciples whereby some would be "taken" and others "left." So, surprise, surprise, I don't have a problem finding the Rapture in Matt 24.

Now, as for the part about the vultures (eagles in other translations), hmm, I'll leave that for others.