Support for pretrib rapture

[AF4Liberty]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that verse 9, which you have highlighted in red "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me" occurs before the trib (and pertains to the Church).

It is my opinion that it occurs after the rapture, in the first half of the trib, and refers to Israel.

Just to make it clear... you think Israel... the people of Israel, are going to be persecuted and put to death because of Christ (which means they have become Christians no?), and this will happen before the A/C has power to overcome the saints?

To me that doesn't fit with scripture. First, Israel will not know Christ until they look upon Him whom they pierced (at the second coming). Second, the A/C does not get power to overcome saints until the last half of the 70th week.

How do you make this fit?

[WalkTheLine]

Matt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

So I figure we who have read it will be responsible for understanding it.

Mt 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Um, last time I looked gentiles are not to worried about the Sabbath. :idunno

There is information and admonition for both Jew and gentile in this passage. So as far as "who this is for?" it is for everyone.

Some thoughts on Jews and the messiah, Hosea 5:15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

There is no indication that they earnestly seek Him because they see Him. The offense, is singular not plural or the Hebrew word would have im behind it. The offense was the rejection of the messiah. The Lord spoke of the blindness that will be on them and the Holy Spirit reminds us the bliondness will end when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete. The blindness is spiritual so I must believe that the spiritual blindness will be removed when the Church is raptured.

[candlelight]

Matt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

So I figure we who have read it will be responsible for understanding it.

Mt 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Um, last time I looked gentiles are not to worried about the Sabbath. :idunno

There is information and admonition for both Jew and gentile in this passage. So as far as "who this is for?" it is for everyone.

Some thoughts on Jews and the messiah, Hosea 5:15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

There is no indication that they earnestly seek Him because they see Him. The offense, is singular not plural or the Hebrew word would have im behind it. The offense was the rejection of the messiah. The Lord spoke of the blindness that will be on them and the Holy Spirit reminds us the bliondness will end when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete. The blindness is spiritual so I must believe that the spiritual blindness will be removed when the Church is raptured.

I always wondered about Matthew 24:20 also being for the Jews because on their Sabbath they can only walk so far and isn't the winter season in Israel really rainy?

[WalkTheLine]

I always wondered about Matthew 24:20 also being for the Jews because on their Sabbath they can only walk so far and isn't the winter season in Israel really rainy?

It is, the rain begins to get less as they get closer to March 21, Spring Equinox. So basically by praying this they are praying that when they have to get out-a-dodge so to speak it will be on or after March 21 and that March 21 or 22 can not be on the Sabbath should they have to leave on one of those days. The interesting thing about this is that the Passover is close to this because it is timed by the barley harvest and Passover and the Feast of Unleavened bread can complicate this as well.

DISCLAIMER; I did not set the date of the Spring Equinox nor do I claim any responsibility for the time of the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread. :D

[AF4Liberty]

Mt 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Um, last time I looked gentiles are not to worried about the Sabbath. :idunno

There is information and admonition for both Jew and gentile in this passage. So as far as "who this is for?" it is for everyone.

Then you agree with me..? :twitch

The argument I've heard is that none of Matt 24 applies to the church, but clearly this persecution and death occurs before and after the beginning of birth pains (and we also know the last half of the 70th week shows the A/C with power to overcome the saints).


Some thoughts on Jews and the messiah, Hosea 5:15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

There is no indication that they earnestly seek Him because they see Him.

With Hosea, all I see is that in their distress, Israel will seek God the Father. This seems obvious to me, as they will have a new temple and will start sacrifices.

I think you are saying that you believe Israel will start being saved by putting their trust and faith in Christ as the Messiah, and this will happen right at the start of the 70th week? Is that correct?

[Seated]

...The argument I've heard is that none of Matt 24 applies to the church, but...

But what? You seem to be hung up on the word "me". There are two major reasons you shouldn't:


John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins." 25 So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you {from} the beginning?

The fact that they didn't recognize Jesus as Messiah didn't stop Jesus from calling Himself that. Same principle applies in Matthew 24. The other problem you have is not taking the phrase as a whole, "because of me":


Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male {child.}

The verse tells us who satan (and the rest of the world) are persecuting and why. The male child here is clearly Jesus. And this verse doesn't say satan "attempts" to persecute them...he does in fact do so.

There is nothing I see in the semantics of Matthew 24 which indicates Jesus was speaking to anyone other than the last Jewish generation before He returns. This same thing is not true of Mark 13 and Luke 21 simply because different questions were being addressed. I agree with Thomas Ice and others who see verses 4-14 as the first half of trib rather than "birth pangs". Only the Remnant of Israel will be "hearing" of wars rather than experiencing them. They will be under the protection of the AC's treaty at that time. There is no change of the intended audience in Matthew 24. As a previous poster pointed out, only those under the Law need be concerned about travel during the Sabbath.

[rescuedbyChrist]

Simply copy and paste the url from the source site into your post. The HTML programming here will take care of it for you.

Thank you. I'll try it sometime.

[AF4Liberty]

Seated,

I'm trying to understand what you've written.


John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins." 25 So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you {from} the beginning?

The fact that they didn't recognize Jesus as Messiah didn't stop Jesus from calling Himself that. Same principle applies in Matthew 24.

I don't believe this has anything to do with what I was saying. Maybe I just don't understand your point.


Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male {child.}

The verse tells us who satan (and the rest of the world) are persecuting and why. The male child here is clearly Jesus. And this verse doesn't say satan "attempts" to persecute them...he does in fact do so.

At first I didn't understand this, but then I read the passage in context and I see what you are saying. I have a few issues however.

Rev 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

First we have Christ being born. Satan was there when Christ was born and tried to kill Him via Herod. Then we see a war occur in heaven. This occurs sometime after Christ ascends to heaven. The war is what throws Satan from heaven permanently.

So according to your view, this war and Satan being cast to the earth must occur at the beginning of the 70th week?

I see this persecution and killing spoken of in Matthew as occurring before the Abomination of Desolation, which occurs in the passage later.

While I don't see the beginning of birth pains as starting in the 70th week, I do see them going into the 70th week.


There is nothing I see in the semantics of Matthew 24 which indicates Jesus was speaking to anyone other than the last Jewish generation before He returns. This same thing is not true of Mark 13 and Luke 21 simply because different questions were being addressed.

Different questions? They're exactly the same.

Matt
Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Mark
“Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that all these things are about to take place?”

Luke
“Teacher, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that these things are about to take place?”

And since it's the same questions, we know they all speak of the same thing. Luke clearly says the persecution and killing occurs before the signs spoken of, and Matt and Mark says after.


I agree with Thomas Ice and others who see verses 4-14 as the first half of trib rather than "birth pangs".

So they're going against what scripture specifically states? :twitch Or did you mean that you think verse 9 - 14 are not the beginning of birth pains, but the first half of the 70th week?

Matt 24:4-8
Jesus answered them, “Watch out that no one misleads you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pains.


As a previous poster pointed out, only those under the Law need be concerned about travel during the Sabbath.

I agree 100% with that, but that occurs after the Abomination of Desolation, which has been told specifically to Israel. This phrase is after all the other stuff.

I am just trying to understand all the points. I have no qualms if this is all Israel or whatever, but I want it all to make sense scripturally.

[rapture-me]

i must agree with your pastor as well. maranatha

[WalkTheLine]

Then you agree with me..? :twitch

The argument I've heard is that none of Matt 24 applies to the church, but clearly this persecution and death occurs before and after the beginning of birth pains (and we also know the last half of the 70th week shows the A/C with power to overcome the saints).

With Hosea, all I see is that in their distress, Israel will seek God the Father. This seems obvious to me, as they will have a new temple and will start sacrifices.

I think you are saying that you believe Israel will start being saved by putting their trust and faith in Christ as the Messiah, and this will happen right at the start of the 70th week? Is that correct?

Let's just say there will be semantics involved in my answer. Christ is the Father and the Father is the Son and They are the Holy Spirit. The blindness will be removed from their eyes after the fullness of the Gentiles Rom 11:25. So let's say they will be Messianic. The term Christian is born from Greek and not Hebrew.

Here is the long winded answer:
Mt 24 is so rich it will take me two days to go over all that I understand and even then it would fall short of what God has for us in these scriptures.

You can not really get who is being addressed in Matthew 24 until you check the background in Matthew 23:37-39. Also who Matthew was to and to whom does Matthew apply to are two different matters. For both it is written for instruction in the wisdom of God.

Rom 11:25-27 Hosea 6:1-4 Hosea 5:15 Matt 23:39 Ps 118:26 Israel will return to their Messiah. We must not forget that Messiah is YHVH the God of Israel.

I strongly recommend listening to the discourse by Missler on this chapter. He provides insight to many things and yet still manages to get you to dig further.
http://firefighters.org/html/library.cfm Open the Matthew and then Chapter 24.

Matthew 24 seems to have an odd and parallel connection to Rev 6
Let's keep this simple.
Mt 24:4-5 and Rev 6:2 Warning of false prophets and the coming of the rider on the white horse. Is it possible that the riders bow is the covenant that he strengthens? God placed His bow is the sky as the covenant with Noah and mankind.

This warning is good for both the Church and the Jew. We are wary of false teachers claiming to be Christ; the rider on the white horse is the ultimate counterfeit.

Mt 24:6-7 and Rev 6:3-4 The Lord tells us of wars and rumors of wars, Rev speaks of the red horse and the rider is war.
Mt 24:7 and Rev 6:5-6 Speak of famine and pestilence.
Mt 24:3-8 and Rev 6:7-8 Death and Hades, these things take not only men’s mortal bodies but there souls.

Mt 24:9 Has a very key word “Then” this is a time indicator. After the birth pangs have begun and have strengthened. Contrast this with Luke 21:12 the time phrase there is “before”

Mt 24:9 appears to have an association with Rev 6:9-11 the martyrs under the alter, under the blood. John does no recognize these people so they are not from the pre-church Mosses and Elijah were recognized on the mount of transfiguration, the are not the Church, John being part of the Church would recognize them as he did the elders. These are very likely tribulation saints killed for their faith.

The major separation where there is a shift in whom the text applies to begins at Mt 24:32 with the word “Now”. Jesus changes His topic from the discourse of the tribulation to come and addresses key elements surrounding when. The disciples ask not just what the signs were but when will these things be.