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Biblenuggetlady
September 22nd, 2008, 01:32 PM
Let me see if I can clarify this without writing out 25 or so pages, I would like to clarify that the Olivet Discourse and following parables, are given to understand the 2nd Coming and the Kingdom age, it does not mean that the Church age is not supposed to be aware of these too. We are called to watch and know the signs, and if we see the nearness of the Kingdom age approaching, and some of the "signs" being fulfilled, how much nearer then is the Blessed Hope, called the rapture! :yeah

I am not writing verbatim here, but this is what is in Fruchtenbaum's Footsteps of the Messiah book, see pages 622-650.

Lets go back one chapter....
Mt. 23:1-39 Jesus completely denounces the Pharisees for their guilt in leading the nation to reject the Messiahship of Jesus, and tells them their temple will be desolate. He and the Disciples then left the temple, Jesus never returned there again. You can imagine that the disciples must be a little concerned, or confused, also...with those words, the public ministry of Jesus, as a prophet, came to an end. Following the Olivet discourse, at the Passover Meal (Lord's Supper) He took on the role of priest. During the following last few days on earth, he would deal exclusively with His disciples. In verses 37-39, Jesus laid down the precondition to the Second Coming...He will not return until the they (Israel) say "blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord." From here we pick up the discourse:

Read all 3 Olivet Discource writings, the one in Matthew, but also Mark 13 and Luke 21:5-36, without reading all three you don't get the complete picture, each Disciple wrote the most relevant as it pertained to his own Gospel account. Since the Jews had refused the Kingdom by refusing Jesus, the Disciples want to know when and how will the Kingdom come, and what signs will there be? And what about this Temple being destroyed? The Temple had been in the process of being built for 50 years at this point, they'd continue to build 34 more, it would only stand completed for 6 years before it is destroyed, just as Jesus stated. The 10-12 ft high and long stones, weighing tons...were completely taken down in order for Rome to get the gold out of the crevices. There was so much Gold in the Temple, and when it burned the gold ran into the crevices of the stones and they wanted to be sure to get it all...this fulfilled to the 't' what Jesus said would happen. I digress....

The three questions (Mt 24:3, Mark 13:3-4, Luke 2:17)

When will these things be? (Destruction of the Temple)
What shall be the sign of your coming? (This is the 2nd Coming, not the rapture as the rapture is not given a sign, it is imminent.)
And the End of the Age? (This age ending bringing about the Kingdom age)

Mt. 24:4-6, Mark 13:6-7, Luke 21:8-9

Before Jesus gives the answer to "when the end of the age is", He gives "non signs", or events that they can expect during "this age", but are not signs.

Many will come in His name, saying "I am the Christ", and will lead astray many. Take heed not to believe them. There will also be "wars" and "rumors of wars". He does not want the disciples to jump to conclusions because of events that will start to come to pass, so He tells them these "non signs" that will continue thru the age, but they are not signs of the end of the age.

Regarding false Christs, Jesus was the first Person who claimed to be Messiah. After Him, many staked that claim and still do. Some Jewish men who claimed Messiah, from Jesus time to the mid 1850's were Simon Bar Cochba, Sabbetal Tzvi and Jacob Frank; Gentiles also have men who've claimed the Messiah title...this is a "characteristic" of the Church Age, but not a sign of the end of the age.

Regarding the "wars" and "rumors of wars", these were also "non signs", but something that would continue thru all the church age. False messiah's and regional/local wars would continue until His return. Luke says, "for these things must needs to come to pass; but the end is not immediately".


Mt. 24:7-8; Mark 13:1-8; Luke 21:10-11
Now that Jesus had given them general characteristics or "non signs" that will continue all the way thru this age, he next answers the 3rd question positively, all 3 Gospels state the end of the age would be signaled by "nation vs nation, kingdom vs kingdom", these will be coupled with famines and earthquakes in various places. This is "the beginning of birth pains". The Jewish idiom, nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom, is a world war-not regional ones. The result of WWI and WWI was Israel was reborn. These wars saw famine, pestilences and the rise of earthquakes from that marked time is exponential, and it isn't because of better eq monitoring, we are talking about significant quakes with high death tolls.

Mark 13:9, Luke 21:12
At this point, after answering the third question as to the sign of the end of the age approaching, Jesus returns to the personal experiences that the Apostles would undergo. We know this is a different period of time, as it is specifically noted to be happen "before all these things". 9 things were in near fulfillment: first they would be rejected by the Jews; they will be rejected by the Gentiles; they will undergo persecutions; but these persecutions would offer opportunity for a testimony; they will succeed in proclaiming the Gospel everywhere (Mk 13:10) verified by Romans 10:18 and Colossians 1:6, 23; they need not worry about preparing defenses because they will be given divine utterance (v14-15) they will be rejected by their own families; they will be hated by all men to the point some will be martyred; their salvation is secure; they will succeed in winning many souls.

Luke 21:20-24
Next, Jesus answers their first question, concerning the signs of the destruction of Jerusalem, it is only recorded by Luke. The Jews were told when they see Jerusalem surrounded to flee, as Jerusalem would be trodden down continually until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. By God's intervention, every single Jewish believer was able to flee Jerusalem, this was in AD 68, they crossed the Jordan River and set up a new community in Pella, in the Transjordan. They were joined by Jewish believers from Judea, Galilee and the Golan. They waited their for the prophecy to be fulfilled. In 70AD, Vespasian and his son Titus beseiged the city and the Temple was destoyed. All together, 1,100,000 Jews were killed, but NOT ONE Jewish believer because they heeded the words of this prophecy. Since that time Jerusalem has been continually trodden down by the Gentiles and will continue to be until Christs 2nd Coming. One question was left:

(I'll continue in another post as I am sure this is long, but I plan to walk you thru the Olivet Discourse thru the parables that are often misapplied.) :candle

Continued from Post #42

The Great Tribulaiton
Matthew 24:9-26; Mark 13:14-23
In preparation to answer the second question, Jesus spoke of the events of both the first and second half of the tribulation.

The First Half
Matthew 24:9-14
(While these verses are similar to Mark 13:9-13 and Luke 21:12-19, the differences show that Matthew is not dealing with the same thing. Lukes texts states that the events he was describing came before the sign of the end of the age, when nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. However, in the Matthew account, the passage begins with the word "Then", pointing out that Jesus is now describing what will come after the event of nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. While the words are similar, they do not prove they are the same event. Mark and Luke described events that will happen to the Apostles before the sign of the first world war, while Matthew dealt with events of the first half of the tribulation that would come after the first world war. I think THIS is why there is so much confusion on what signs are for what and who-all 3 Gospels have to be taken into account together. Many just read Matthew or Luke and forget to compare the 3 to eachother.)

Jesus pointed out 5 things that will occur during the first half of the Tribulation: persecution of the saints (v9-10, also stated in Rev. 6:9-11); the One World Religious System-Ecclesiastical Babylon-who will be doing the persecuting and responsible for the death of the saints during the first half of the Trib. The first half of the Trib. will also be characterized by the rise of MANY false prophets (v11, and also pointed out in Zech. 13:2-6); tremendous rise of sin and iniquity (v12) because evil will no longer be restrained (II Thes. 2:6-7); the Jews who survive to the end of the Trib. will be saved (v13); and the worldwide preaching of the Gospel (v14) done by the 144,000. The results of their ministry is found in Rev. 7:9-17, where it clearly states a great multitude of Gentiles will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus as Savior.

2nd Half of the Tribulation Events
Matthew 24:15-20; Mark 13:14-23
There are 8 things that Jesus mentions that will happen in the second half of the Tribulation. The marking point of the start of the second half, is the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place (v15). This will involve 2 stages, the first will be the a/c taking over the Temple, sit down in the Holy of Holies and declare hiimself to be god (II Thes. 2:3-10); the second stage of the AOD is when THE False Prophet makes an image of the a/c and stands it in the Holy of Holies (Rev. 13:11-15; Dan. 12:11). The worst half has begun...

The AOD will signal the Jews to flee out of the Land (v16-20 and recorded in Rev. 12:13-17). The emphasis in the passage is the speed in which they are to flee, and the difficulties that will be present are pregnant women or women with infants; also, if the flight is in the winter the weather can hinder their speed especially in the wadis, such as the one leading to Petra; and thirdly, the Sabbath...if their flight is on a Sabbath, public transportation closes down. Because of these difficulties, they are told to pray that the AOD does not happen on a Sabbath or a winter day/in the rainy season. Another reason for this flight is due to the worldwide anti-semitism as satan attempts to annihilate the Jews once and for all. Israel will survive this terrible period, though greatly reduced in number (v22). The second half of the Trib. will be characterized by a false messiah, as typified in the counterfit son, the A/C (v23). The latter half of the Trib. will be characterized by many false signs, miracles and wonders for the purpose of worldwide deception. They will be performed by the A/C (II Thes. 2:8-10) and the False Prophet (Rev. 13:11-15). Jesus warned that there will be people saying that the Messiah has returned and can be found here, or there and that the Second Coming secretly occurred (v23-27). Jesus warned the Jews not to believe any such rumor and not to come out of hiding, He told them here....that His Second Coming will not be secret, and all men will see it, for it will be like a flash of lightening surrounding the world. Jesus gave a hint as to the place of His Second Coming in v28. He said, "where the body is, there will the eagles (better translated vultures) be gathered together". The "body" refers to Israel, while the vultures refer to Gentile nations coming against the body of Israel. It is Bozrah (in Hebrew) or Petra (in Greek). That is where the body will be (Mic 2:12-13); that is where the vultures will be gathered to come against them (Is 34:1-7; 63:1-6) and where He returns (Hab 3:3)

Now...the "sign" that will signal His coming
Mt 24:29-30; Mark 13:24-26; Luke 21:25-27
In Matthews account, Jesus stated that just preceding the sign of the Second Coming, there will be a total blackout of the earth. No light will penetrate from the sun, moon or stars. (Mt 24:29) Luke adds, there will be a great moment of perplexity on the earth-both physical and non-physical things are shaken in expectation (Lk 21:25-26).

Mt. states that the sign of the Son of Man will appear (v30), so what will be the sign of His Second Coming? The Shechinah Glory, from out of the utter darkness will burst forth a sudden, glorious and tremendous light that disperses the darkness. This light will be followed by His Second Coming. (Can you imagine the scene!!! Goosebumps)

Now, all three questions have been answered and the signs given. The destruction of the Temple sign, would be Jerusalem surrounded by armies (sign given 66AD, fulfilled 70AD). The sign that the end of the age had begun was to be a world wide war (WWI, WWII-the sign was given 1914-1918). The sign of His Second Coming will be the Shekinah Glory breaking through the worldwide darkness and will happen at the end of the Trib.

Jesus gave more information too, besides answering the 3 questions.
The Regathering of Israel
Mt. 24:31; Mark 13:27
Following the Second Coming, Jesus will send his angels all over the world to regather every Jew and bring them back to their land. The background verse for Mt is Isaiah 27:12-13; the one for Mark is Deut. 30:4. This part of the Olivet Discourse summarizes OT prophecies: (Is. 11:11-12:6; 43:5-7; Jer. 23:5-8; 31:7-14; Ez. 11:16-21; 20:40-42; 36:22; etc)

The Exhortation
Luke 21:28
Jesus, having given an outline of things to happen from the Apostles day until the beginning of the MK, he also gave an exhortation: But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draws nigh. In Luke's context, the expression "these things" refers back to Luke 21:20-24, which was the sign of the destruction of Jerusalem. Once that was fulfilled in 70 AD, that fullfilled any and every prophecy that had to be fulfilled before the rapture could occur. The rapture has been imminent since the destruction of the Temple until today. :yeah!

For anyone intersted, I am going to open a new thread for the parables that followed the Olivet Discourse.

Buzzardhut
September 22nd, 2008, 01:54 PM
Trust me you are not the only one a bit confused. The problem stems from the fact that we contradict ourselves CONSTANTLY concerning this passage. I have tired discussing this numerous times but I always seem to get the thread shut down or deleted. :doh

I see the problem as this. We want to say this WHOLE passage is about 2nd coming and for the Jews but then we still keep the phrase "know one knows the day or hour" and apply to the rapture. That makes no sense and that is why you and I are confused. Now if we don't know when the 2nd coming is it follows that we don't know when the rapture is either. BUT, at some point (like abomination of desolation) we can figure it out to the day of the 2nd coming. So obviously this does not mean we won't ever be able to know 2nd coming day because the trib saints will be able to calculate. Also the Greek verb for know(present tense at the time) even supports this.

Next part - Elect = those without mark

As far as one taken, one left...I am not convinced yet that it means taken in judgment. Maybe someone can convince me? :idunno We know that Jesus will gather the elect at his coming. Those are taken at the second coming. If it is meant to mean taken in judgment, then that would have to happen first before the gathering of the elect for someone to be left in the field or grinding at the mill. Now if he gathers his elect next, that leaves no one left. So we have all the elect gathered in Israel and all the "bad guys" taken out. Who is left for the sheep and goats judgment? I see it as the elect being taken and gathered together, then Jesus does the sheep and goats judgment.

"We" as believers and Israel, do not know the day nor the hour of the imminent rapture, nor the (second coming until the AOD), but Christians will be gone then and only those left behind can guesstimate the second coming, if they have access to biblical information.
Those left behind are the sheep and goats

Castle
September 22nd, 2008, 02:06 PM
FWIW

A. Fruchtenbaum (AF) also believes that the beginning of Matt 24 ("nation against nation,. kingdom against kingdom, famine, earthquakes") refers to WWI and WWII "eras" and when Jesus said that these things mark the beginning of birth pains - according to A.F. - Jesus was telling us that WWI marked the beginning of birth pains, and hence, the beginning of the last "generation".\

Interestingly - there was a huge surge in earthquakes around the WWI period and WWII periods...Additionally, there were surges in famine and pestilence during both WWI and WWII - making Jesus' picture complete - you can look it up. For instance the "Spanish flu" (coincidentally is genetically VERY similar to the "bird flu") which likked so so many people was in 1918-1919...Along with many other epidemics. Most of the famine was from war refugees, but other parts of the world also expereinced severe famine immediately following and during these wars.

So, according to A.F., Olivet would not only pertain to the Nation of Israel - Due to the fact that this passage refers to signs that the Church age would see/witness.

4EverHis
September 22nd, 2008, 02:31 PM
"We" as believers and Israel, do not know the day nor the hour of the imminent rapture, nor the (second coming until the AOD), but Christians will be gone then and only those left behind can guesstimate the second coming, if they have access to biblical information.Those left behind are the sheep and goats

And the 144,000 spreading the Gospel :)

Biblenuggetlady
September 22nd, 2008, 02:45 PM
In the days of Noah who were the ones taken? Were they not taken into judgement? Who were the ones left? Wasn't Noah left and saved through the judgement? Enoch is a picture of the church who was taken before the Flood to be with God and of the Rapture of the church. Noah is a picture of the Jewish remnant believers after the Rapture. Enoch was saved or taken "out of" the tribulation, and Noah was saved through the tribulation.

What is the purpose of the 7 year tribulation? Is it also called Daniel's 70th week which is a judgement for the Jewish Israel? Read Daniel 9:24 notice it says that 70 weeks are determined upon thy people....what people? ...and upon thy holy city....what holy City? The city is Jerusalem. The tribulation has nothing to do with our (the church's) punishment but the punishment of Israel for not obeying God's command, and Matthew 24 speaks of that time.

The eating and drinking people are the unbelievers right before the tribulation period, not during it.

:thumb I agree with others, VERY well put. :preach

twinkle
September 22nd, 2008, 02:55 PM
In the days of Noah who were the ones taken? Were they not taken into judgement? Who were the ones left? Wasn't Noah left and saved through the judgement? Enoch is a picture of the church who was taken before the Flood to be with God and of the Rapture of the church. Noah is a picture of the Jewish remnant believers after the Rapture. Enoch was saved or taken "out of" the tribulation, and Noah was saved through the tribulation.

What is the purpose of the 7 year tribulation? Is it also called Daniel's 70th week which is a judgement for the Jewish Israel? Read Daniel 9:24 notice it says that 70 weeks are determined upon thy people....what people? ...and upon thy holy city....what holy City? The city is Jerusalem. The tribulation has nothing to do with our (the church's) punishment but the punishment of Israel for not obeying God's command, and Matthew 24 speaks of that time.

The eating and drinking people are the unbelievers right before the tribulation period, not during it.

Does anyone know how long before the flood Enoch was taken up? Just wondering.:)

penbrat
September 22nd, 2008, 02:58 PM
In the days of Noah who were the ones taken? Were they not taken into judgement? Who were the ones left? Wasn't Noah left and saved through the judgement? Enoch is a picture of the church who was taken before the Flood to be with God and of the Rapture of the church. Noah is a picture of the Jewish remnant believers after the Rapture. Enoch was saved or taken "out of" the tribulation, and Noah was saved through the tribulation.

What is the purpose of the 7 year tribulation? Is it also called Daniel's 70th week which is a judgement for the Jewish Israel? Read Daniel 9:24 notice it says that 70 weeks are determined upon thy people....what people? ...and upon thy holy city....what holy City? The city is Jerusalem. The tribulation has nothing to do with our (the church's) punishment but the punishment of Israel for not obeying God's command, and Matthew 24 speaks of that time.

The eating and drinking people are the unbelievers right before the tribulation period, not during it.

Now that's an interesting thought. I have never heard it explained exactly like that, but that makes good sense. Thanks

Seated
September 22nd, 2008, 03:00 PM
We're studying Matthew verse by verse on Sundays. Today we were in Matthew 24. I've always read this as being about us but our Pastor said it was meant for the Jewish nation and those going through the Tribulation.

I've always thought "Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. " was speaking of the Rapture. He said this is speaking of the Tribulation time and you would want to be the one left.

He said this whole chapter is not speaking of the church but rather those "left behind" after the Rapture. He said if we try to fit this chapter into our walk it will be confusing.

Also, he says when they talk about in the days of Noah to remember Enoch Genesis 5:24. He was taken out before the flood and our Pastor says this is a picture of us.

He believes that we are very close to the Rapture, which we all know don't we:thumb

My head is spinning because 30+ years of Christian walk and thinking I understood the end times prophecy better is shattered. :idunno

Our Pastor is a terrific teacher and I guess I've never had a real teaching on this chapter. Only picked up bits and pieces.

Just wanted to give everyone food for thought. You guys will probably say :doh, we've known this for years.

There is both good news and bad news. While I had always been told there was a rapture in Matthew 24, years ago I abandoned that idea, mainly because of Jesus' statement in the context about worrying about travel during the Sabbath. That statement could not be applied to either Jews or gentiles in the Church, as we aren't under the Law. That lead me to Matthew 13, where other "end of the age" events included the separation judgments (wheat/tares; good fish/bad fish). That is what Jesus is describing in Matthew 24:40, the "taking" away of the unrighteous, just as they were "taken" away in the flood...through physical death. The good news is that your pastor is not alone in this view.

Now the bad news. While I and your pastor may agree on a similar "take" of Matthew 24 (as did Chafer and does Ryrie) there are many brothers and sisters in the pre-trib camp who do not agree and still hold to your now former (?) position.

In Summary, what Jesus said to/about Israel in Matthew 24 was specifically for that last generation of Jews who would see all the signs He gave there come to pass, including His return. While it is not essential to my pre-trib stance for that reason, others will/may not agree. May the Lord convict each as He sees fit. :)

gratefulberean
September 22nd, 2008, 03:13 PM
"We" as believers and Israel, do not know the day nor the hour of the imminent rapture, nor the (second coming until the AOD), but Christians will be gone then and only those left behind can guesstimate the second coming, if they have access to biblical information.
Those left behind are the sheep and goats

THANK YOU


Continued from Post #42

The Great Tribulaiton
Matthew 24:9-26; Mark 13:14-23
In preparation to answer the second question, Jesus spoke of the events of both the first and second half of the tribulation.

The First Half
Matthew 24:9-14
(While these verses are similar to Mark 13:9-13 and Luke 21:12-19, the differences show that Matthew is not dealing with the same thing. Lukes texts states that the events he was describing came before the sign of the end of the age, when nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. However, in the Matthew account, the passage begins with the word "Then", pointing out that Jesus is now describing what will come after the event of nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. While the words are similar, they do not prove they are the same event. Mark and Luke described events that will happen to the Apostles before the sign of the first world war, while Matthew dealt with events of the first half of the tribulation that would come after the first world war. I think THIS is why there is so much confusion on what signs are for what and who-all 3 Gospels have to be taken into account together. Many just read Matthew or Luke and forget to compare the 3 to eachother.)

Jesus pointed out 5 things that will occur during the first half of the Tribulation: persecution of the saints (v9-10, also stated in Rev. 6:9-11); the One World Religious System-Ecclesiastical Babylon-who will be doing the persecuting and responsible for the death of the saints during the first half of the Trib. The first half of the Trib. will also be characterized by the rise of MANY false prophets (v11, and also pointed out in Zech. 13:2-6); tremendous rise of sin and iniquity (v12) because evil will no longer be restrained (II Thes. 2:6-7); the Jews who survive to the end of the Trib. will be saved (v13); and the worldwide preaching of the Gospel (v14) done by the 144,000. The results of their ministry is found in Rev. 7:9-17, where it clearly states a great multitude of Gentiles will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus as Savior.

2nd Half of the Tribulation Events
Matthew 24:15-20; Mark 13:14-23
There are 8 things that Jesus mentions that will happen in the second half of the Tribulation. The marking point of the start of the second half, is the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place (v15). This will involve 2 stages, the first will be the a/c taking over the Temple, sit down in the Holy of Holies and declare hiimself to be god (II Thes. 2:3-10); the second stage of the AOD is when THE False Prophet makes an image of the a/c and stands it in the Holy of Holies (Rev. 13:11-15; Dan. 12:11). The worst half has begun...

The AOD will signal the Jews to flee out of the Land (v16-20 and recorded in Rev. 12:13-17). The emphasis in the passage is the speed in which they are to flee, and the difficulties that will be present are pregnant women or women with infants; also, if the flight is in the winter the weather can hinder their speed especially in the wadis, such as the one leading to Petra; and thirdly, the Sabbath...if their flight is on a Sabbath, public transportation closes down. Because of these difficulties, they are told to pray that the AOD does not happen on a Sabbath or a winter day/in the rainy season. Another reason for this flight is due to the worldwide anti-semitism as satan attempts to annihilate the Jews once and for all. Israel will survive this terrible period, though greatly reduced in number (v22). The second half of the Trib. will be characterized by a false messiah, as typified in the counterfit son, the A/C (v23). The latter half of the Trib. will be characterized by many false signs, miracles and wonders for the purpose of worldwide deception. They will be performed by the A/C (II Thes. 2:8-10) and the False Prophet (Rev. 13:11-15). Jesus warned that there will be people saying that the Messiah has returned and can be found here, or there and that the Second Coming secretly occurred (v23-27). Jesus warned the Jews not to believe any such rumor and not to come out of hiding, He told them here....that His Second Coming will not be secret, and all men will see it, for it will be like a flash of lightening surrounding the world. Jesus gave a hint as to the place of His Second Coming in v28. He said, "where the body is, there will the eagles (better translated vultures) be gathered together". The "body" refers to Israel, while the vultures refer to Gentile nations coming against the body of Israel. It is Bozrah (in Hebrew) or Petra (in Greek). That is where the body will be (Mic 2:12-13); that is where the vultures will be gathered to come against them (Is 34:1-7; 63:1-6) and where He returns (Hab 3:3)

Now...the "sign" that will signal His coming
Mt 24:29-30; Mark 13:24-26; Luke 21:25-27
In Matthews account, Jesus stated that just preceding the sign of the Second Coming, there will be a total blackout of the earth. No light will penetrate from the sun, moon or stars. (Mt 24:29) Luke adds, there will be a great moment of perplexity on the earth-both physical and non-physical things are shaken in expectation (Lk 21:25-26).

Mt. states that the sign of the Son of Man will appear (v30), so what will be the sign of His Second Coming? The Shechinah Glory, from out of the utter darkness will burst forth a sudden, glorious and tremendous light that disperses the darkness. This light will be followed by His Second Coming. (Can you imagine the scene!!! Goosebumps)

Now, all three questions have been answered and the signs given. The destruction of the Temple sign, would be Jerusalem surrounded by armies (sign given 66AD, fulfilled 70AD). The sign that the end of the age had begun was to be a world wide war (WWI, WWII-the sign was given 1914-1918). The sign of His Second Coming will be the Shekinah Glory breaking through the worldwide darkness and will happen at the end of the Trib.

Jesus gave more information too, besides answering the 3 questions.
The Regathering of Israel
Mt. 24:31; Mark 13:27
Following the Second Coming, Jesus will send his angels all over the world to regather every Jew and bring them back to their land. The background verse for Mt is Isaiah 27:12-13; the one for Mark is Deut. 30:4. This part of the Olivet Discourse summarizes OT prophecies: (Is. 11:11-12:6; 43:5-7; Jer. 23:5-8; 31:7-14; Ez. 11:16-21; 20:40-42; 36:22; etc)

The Exhortation
Luke 21:28
Jesus, having given an outline of things to happen from the Apostles day until the beginning of the MK, he also gave an exhortation: But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draws nigh. In Luke's context, the expression "these things" refers back to Luke 21:20-24, which was the sign of the destruction of Jerusalem. Once that was fulfilled in 70 AD, that fullfilled any and every prophecy that had to be fulfilled before the rapture could occur. The rapture has been imminent since the destruction of the Temple until today. :yeah!

For anyone intersted, I am going to open a new thread for the parables that followed the Olivet Discourse.


THANK YOU

This helps a whole lot! When I get home tonight I will be reviewing Luke 21/Matt 24/ and Mark 13.

I was, like in crisis over this, perplexed!

I am reading Fruchtenbaum, but only on about pg 300 yet! Still much to go...
When stuff like this comes up, it rocks my world and makes me feel that I am unable to discern the Word on 'my own' and am relegated to following other's interpretations. I get discouraged and wonder why/how I could be so stupid, so inept at 'getting it'. THANK YOU everybody for helping with this very enlightening thread!:hug

4EverHis
September 22nd, 2008, 03:45 PM
From Zola Levitt- :)

Confusion Concerning the Rapture and the Second ComingThe expression “the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night”, (1 Thess. 5:2), has caused many problems in theological circles. The day of the Lord is in reference to the Second Coming, not the Rapture. And the expression, “thief in the night” has so often been applied to the Rapture, but it really has to do with the Second Coming and the reign of terror and judgment on the unbelievers. Note also in 1 Thess. 5:3 that the unbelievers shall not escape this terror and wrath to come. That certainly is not speaking of the believer, who is to be taken out and rescued.
There has been much confusion over Matthew 24, vs. 36-51, as well. So many apply this passage to the Rapture. But there are many reasons why this could not be so.
First of all, the context of the message is a warning by the King of the Jews to His subjects. We should study the Bible by what’s going on at the moment, chapter by chapter. In the Olivet Discourse, which runs from Matthew 24 through 26, Jesus is talking about the terrible times to come upon the nation of Israel. He in no way alludes to the Church. The point of the whole passage is coming judgment, not the rescue of believers.
One of the key verses in this section is verse 37, “but as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” The days of Noah were days of impending judgment. People went on about their daily lives as if nothing was going to happen (vs.38-39). There is a warning in this passage to “Watch…for you know not what hour your Lord does come” (vs.42). But in the context Jesus is talking to the nation of Israel, and the ones being snatched away are taken to judgment, not to heaven to be with Him, (vs. 40-41). The unfaithful servant in the passage is the Jew who is not looking for his Messiah. Because the times and the issues are so severe, the unfaithful servant is executed (vs. 51).
This description of judgment is certainly not for believers today. The Rapture is a glorious liberation from planet earth, prior to great destruction and wrath (1 Thess. 5:9). Judgment is certainly not the “blessed hope” of the believer.
Another great demonstration of the deliverance provided by the Rapture is found in the total organization of the Book of Revelation. The Church is not mentioned from Chapter 4 on, as the apostle John describes “the things to come”, in all their horror. Instead, we see a group of believers in Heaven enjoying the presence of the Messiah.
This probably describes the Church Saints. Meanwhile, on earth, there are many descriptions of the Jewish people responding to the Messiah and accepting Him. But the Church is no longer seen on earth, experiencing the terror of the tribulation age.
The Church will return only afterwards, at the Second Coming.