Speaking In Tongues?

[RaptureReady_7]

sounds like an exaggeration to me :idunno not uncommon in charismania circles

What is this you speak of? :twitch You say exaggeration in Charisma churches? Surely not?!!!?!! :heh

[john boland]

I don't know if it is an exaggeration or not. I really don't know how many college credits would be required to receive a degree, a Masters, or a Doctorate in Religion, Divinity, Theology etc and how many hours of study would be required. I look at it this way, if he has almost 6 years of study under his belt, he would only have to have two more years if he was a medical student to graduate and practice medicine. Therefore, if my heart was not beating correctly and Perry Stone was in medical school and lived next door, he would see me knocking on his door for the simple fact he knows more about the subject than I.

[iSong6:3]

I don't know if it is an exaggeration or not. I really don't know how many college credits would be required to receive a degree, a Masters, or a Doctorate in Religion, Divinity, Theology etc and how many hours of study would be required. I look at it this way, if he has almost 6 years of study under his belt, he would only have to have two more years if he was a medical student to graduate and practice medicine. Therefore, if my heart was not beating correctly and Perry Stone was in medical school and lived next door, he would see me knocking on his door for the simple fact he knows more about the subject than I.

I understand your point, but I don't think it's a correct analogy. Science is not theology. And there are, for example, cult leaders (not saying that Stone is one, he's not) who pore over the Bible their whole lives and still make a mess of it, quoting Scripture to try to validate their cultic, unBiblical ways.

Quanitity is not quality. It takes a drop of poison in a substance to make the whole thing poisonous to drink, or just a "little leaven" to leaven the whole lump. (Galatians 5:9)

[ComeLordJesus]

Okay, I've been going to a hyper-charismatic for about five years and was getting ready to leave for the third time due to what I feel are wrong doctrines. I was born into a Baptist family so I grew up thinking Pentecostals were crazy Holy Rollers. So I'm not sure if my background is making me feel strange or it my current church is just wrong in doctrine and practices. Now I'm confused and need help.

I'm now on my second read through of the whole Bible and I re-read the miracles performed during that time. I had come to believe that miracles were no longer done by God, and the few tongues-speakers in my church were fakes (I still believe the latter. Stuttering D-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d doesn't seem like a language to me. Sorry). My church purports to perform healing miracles through prayers and laying on of hands.

Now I don't see slaying in the spirit in the Bible, but what about laying on of hands, etc? I've just been reading in Acts that the Apostles and first disciples were baptized and Christians before they received the Holy Spirit in the upper room. And what about the people who had the baptism of John but had to have hands laid on them to receive the Holy Spirit? And Cornelious' household. They all began speaking in tongues immediately after according to Acts. Are the charismatics right in saying that there is a difference between becoming a Christian and the baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues (note that my church doesn't believe one must speak in tongues, and most don't. I've never hear the pastor of his wife or the praise leader do so.)

I'm so confused that I don't know if I'm asking the right question. Please help!

Thanks.

[Kliska]

No, the charismatics that teach there is a separate baptism of the Spirit are not correct. Notice in the Bible there is only one (efficacious) baptism for all believers; that baptism is the baptism of the Spirit. There is no other baptism but that one that has inherent power (the power of water baptism is a symbol and a show of faith, which has power in and of itself).

Some will argue that indeed, every believer is baptized of the Spirit, but not all are filled with the Spirit. The problem with this is how they interpret the passages talking about being filled with the Spirit; it doesn't mean to show outward manifestations, like tongues, more than other believers.

[ComeLordJesus]

No, the charismatics that teach there is a separate baptism of the Spirit are not correct. Notice in the Bible there is only one (efficacious) baptism for all believers; that baptism is the baptism of the Spirit. There is no other baptism but that one that has inherent power (the power of water baptism is a symbol and a show of faith, which has power in and of itself).

Some will argue that indeed, every believer is baptized of the Spirit, but not all are filled with the Spirit. The problem with this is how they interpret the passages talking about being filled with the Spirit; it doesn't mean to show outward manifestations, like tongues, more than other believers.Thanks, Kliska, that makes sense.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I'm not sure if this will help (and I haven't read the entire article), but maybe there will be something here that might provide assistance (from one of my favorite authors):

The Line Drawn (full text) - Miles J. Stanford

A Booklet on the Charismatic/Pentecostal
Baptism, Tongues, Healing, and Demonism, so-called

http://withchrist.org/mjs/line.htm


THE BAPTISM BY THE SPIRIT

A POSITIONAL TRUTH -- "A line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem" (Zechariah 1:16). If the line is to be drawn against the present-day charismatic errors, we must begin at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). That is where the true baptism by the Holy Spirit took place, and it is from that event that the charismatic errors regarding the so-called "baptism in the Holy Ghost" have evolved.

The key to understanding the baptism by the Spirit is that it is a positional truth. It is not an experience; it has nothing to do with feelings. The baptism is an instantaneous work comprised of many simultaneous acts of the sovereign God. The following comments deal with but five of these acts which concern us here.

Observing what transpired at Pentecost we see that the first act was regeneration, or new birth, by the Spirit (Titus 3:5; John 3:6).

When the Holy Spirit came, He was to indwell the believers. Hitherto, He had been with them; now He was to abide in them forever, ministering the risen life of the Lord Jesus (John 14:16, 17; Colossians 1:27).

At the same time, He baptized each of them into union with Christ at the right hand of the Father on high (Ephesians 2:6). This was the fulfillment of our Lord's promise, "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you" (John 14:20). The believer is not baptized in or into the Spirit, as the charismatics teach. The Holy Spirit is the Baptizer, or Agent of baptism, not the element into which one is baptized: "For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body" (I Corinthians 12:13). The "one body" is the Body of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is the Church (Colossians 1:18, 24).

Upon believing, each was sealed with the indwelling Spirit. This has a threefold significance: a finished transaction; a mark of ownership; a guarantee of safe delivery [security]. "In whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest [down payment] of our inheritance, unto the [final] redemption of God's own possession" (Ephesians 1:13, 14, ASV).

Also, each received the anointing of the Spirit, which is closely related to His indwelling. This too, abides and is not a repeated act (I John 2:20, 27). "Now he who...hath anointed us, is God, who hath also sealed us, and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts" (II Corinthians 1:21, 22).

Hence each believer from Pentecost to this day has been, by the Holy Spirit, regenerated, indwelt, baptized into Christ, sealed and anointed--all apart from feelings. These are separate acts, but simultaneously wrought--and non-experiential. Faith in these scriptural facts is absolutely necessary if the believer is to be invulnerable to the siren call of the charismatic claims.

The baptism by the Spirit involves more than being "immersed" into the Body of Christ. It means to be brought into organic union with that which is capable of bringing about a change. This baptism is the sovereign act by which the believer's position is changed from death in the first Adam to life in the Last Adam. The Christian becomes a completely new creation in Christ Jesus (II Corinthians 5:17). "Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with Him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3, 4, ASV).

CHARISMATIC ERRORS -- None of these facets of the Spirit's work were true of anyone prior to the day of Pentecost. No, not one! Charismatic teaching is that the Spirit had been previously given, and that Acts 2:4 records a "second blessing." "Any error may be founded on part of Scripture; the truth alone is based on the whole." Let us examine some of the verses on which their claim is made.

...

THE LINE -- The Word is very clear concerning the baptism by the Spirit. It is a once-for-all act of God, never to be repeated, asked or prayed for, nor to be subjectively experienced. The scriptural line has been drawn; there is to be no crossing over to any experience such as a subsequent "reception of the Holy Ghost", a baptism "into" Him, speaking in tongues, a "second work of grace", or "entire sanctification."

Any and all of these erroneous extras nullify the completed first work of grace by which the believer is recreated in the risen Lord Jesus Christ, fully accepted by God in all the glorious fullness of His beloved Son, and thereby made safe and secure for time and eternity.

It is on this all-important doctrine of the baptism by the Holy Spirit that the charismatics seriously err. This error is the basis for the other excesses that characterize the movement, including its stand against eternal security. Such a doctrinal lack forces them beyond the truth into the false realm of "second blessing" experience. What they lack in objective position (faith), they seek to gain by subjective condition (feelings).

By contrast, the position-oriented believer does not lack experience; his is the life-long progress of growth "in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ" (II Peter 3:18).

(More at link, above)

[Christina]

Thank you for that article accepted, it helped me out too! :hug

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Thank you for that article accepted, it helped me out too! :hug

Glad you found it helpful, Christina. :hug

[ComeLordJesus]

Thanks, Accepted! I've never heard of 'positional' truth.