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Mopsie
April 16th, 2008, 11:11 AM
This is from a thread I posted a while back:


Often times, in our pursuit to better understand the body of Christ and churches and denominations in particular - seeing the divisions and contentions of the church up close, my husband and I have been boggled by another area of doctrine that seems to have been disregarded. We have walked through a 14 year journey that ended last year of visiting, attending and even joining a number of churches and different denominations. We really wanted to know personally what was out there, rather than just make generalizations or assumptions about churches or denominations but to be able to offer what we have found to be true. And in the course of all of this, God has taken what we have seen and now know to be true to guide us into being more scripturally sound and Bible based. He has been faithful to us and in turn - as we have worked to build our lives around Scripture, to correct our wrongs in order to be better witnesses of the faith, to bring unity to the Church - the body of Christ - he has called my husband to be a pastor and has called us to plant a church.

That said, this is what we have struggled with:

Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. 1 Cor. 14:39,40

We have a good friend here in town. She is a local business owner, a beautiful Christian woman and someone we have been blessed to get to know. She, however, is Full Gospel and very charismatic at that. There have been different times that we have clashed with her in regards to beliefs and the practices of her church. She has invited us to her church and we were considering attending. But we held back for one reason.

You see, at the beginning of their services they reserve about a half hour to an hour for speaking in tongues and prophecy. And this is why we have not attended. There is dancing about and people just going crazy in jibber jabber. No regard for "things being done decently or in order." And that is something we do not condone nor is it scriptural. They feel as if one does not speak in tongues, or prophecy, that somehow they really aren't saved and have not received the gift of the Holy Spirit. And that is clearly wrong.

However, we have another close friend that attends a very strict Bible church, with beliefs holding true and strong ties to the Baptist denomination. She has, on a number of occasions, told us how sinful it is for people to speak in tongues. She has regarded that at some point the Holy Spirit stopped giving the gifts of prophecy and speaking in tongues. Really? This is clearly wrong too and we have noticed that so many churches, those who tend to clearly mark themselves as conservative or traditional have completely thrown out 1 Corinthians 14:39,40. This is also clearly wrong.

Let no corrupt word proceed out of out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:29,30

The Bible is very clear that worship - and that pertaining to speaking in tongues and prophecy - is to be done so with order and decency. We have no qualm with that obviously. But what we do have a problem with is when the Church says "you may not do this" when Scripture clearly says yes.

There are so many divisions and contentions facing the Church -the body of Christ - and speaking in tongues and prophecy are certainly both a part of this.

Think about this argument: many people we talk to who are conservative or traditional tell us that the signs and wonders of prophecy and tongues are no longer needed. Again, really? Perhaps we too quickly forget the world and times we live in.

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 1 Corinthians 14:22

If prophecy is unbiblical, then you wouldn't be reading this because this site would cease to exist. No, instead we come here for encouragement and to build one another up in the hope of Christ as believers.

Perhaps then, our unbelieving, dying world - longing for truth and needing the hope of a Savior could use the sign of tongues. Because that is what the Bible says the Holy Spirit equips believers with this gift for.

God forbid that we divide his word any longer, causing the work of the Holy Spirit to be grieved and enabling division and contention in His body. We are called to unity - certainly with order and decency in mind, but to first and always being obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Tenbear2808
April 16th, 2008, 11:19 AM
Very well said Mopsie :hat

Mopsie
April 16th, 2008, 11:26 AM
Thank you Tenbear 2008 - I needed that today! :hug

raptureshoes
April 16th, 2008, 11:39 AM
I encourage each one of you to pray to God, Jesus AND the Holy Spirit to receive your answer to this debate. Why are you trusting Joe Moe down the street?? When you pray do you pray to only God or Jesus....the Holy TRINITY includes the Holy Spirit. He's not going to answer if you do not acknowledge Him. Know that He will answer according to Your needs and desires and not anyone else's. I strongly encourage all to develop a relationship with Him whether it leads to speaking in tongues or not.

RachelsDream
April 16th, 2008, 11:42 AM
TennBear....thank you for defending the Holy Spirit!

And Mopsie, could have not said it better myself!!!!!!!

I left this board awhile back because of this topic. It saddens me that SO MANY put the LIVING God in a box. People who pray in the Spirit should not have to hide away as the Jews have done in Germany. Yes, How much we have grieved the Holy Spirit by throwing back such a precious gift of the Lord!

I believe that the people who do not understand this gift.....are actually afraid of it. They must be touched by the LIVING God to really know what we are speaking of today. Their hearts MUST be WILLING and OPEN to hear the Truth...just as in hearing the message of Salvation, when they were first saved.

My fiance came from a Southern Baptist background. At first, when he started to visit my church...he totally rejected the Holy Spirit. He became angry, and resentful. My fiance woud be the first one to tell you that he deals with Pride. After several months of visiting his church, and then coming to mine, The Lord HIMSELF showed my fiance how wrong he has been. My fiance is now filled with the Holy Ghost, and one night.....weeped and weeped over the fact that he has grieved the Holy Spirit through his rejection.

He told me the other day that he has not ever had a closer walk with the Living God than now. It is not about "us" being holier than thou....but it IS about embracing the LIVING GOD and HIS WORD.

TennBear, Mopsie, and others on this board that stand up for the Holy Spirit......you have inspired me to not be ashamed of the Lord my GOD. I thank you for that.........and very blessed that you are members here.

I do not, one day, want to stand in front of the Living God....while he asks me why have I not stood up for him.

The Holy Spirit is alive and well today.......and I thank God for his Living Presence in me. Glory, Glory to the Living God!!!!!!!!!!:yeah

goinghome
April 16th, 2008, 11:49 AM
Is full gospel the title of a denomination? I haven't heard of a church called that before. If it's not a title then it's implication is that any church that does not encourage tongues during a service would be less than full gospel, which is simply untrue. It's kind of a backhanded put down. And they're the ones preaching about division? The info is out there to be learned but you have to be willing to learn regardless of what you've been taught. The Bible is the final authority. Jibberish is not tongues, it is from satan. I've been in those churches, I'm from Texas originally so I've seen and heard plenty of this. For about a month I even participated and spoke in these "tongues". It was not Godly. It was coerced, and frankly it was a sad human attempt at man glorifying himself and patting himself on the back for being so holy. I believe in tongues, prophecy, even healing and all the other gifts mentioned in the Gospels. I just believe in their proper application and have yet to see their proper application in these types of churches. Those who are standing up against this kind of wrong behavior and bad teaching are not dividing, but contending for the faith.

Sing4Him
April 16th, 2008, 11:56 AM
How much we have grieved the Holy Spirit

:scratch:scratch What does this mean? where is scripture does it say if we do not believe in tongues that we grieve the Holy Spirit?


My fiance is now filled with the Holy Ghost

So, when your fiance repented and asked Jesus to be his Lord and Savior, you're saying he was not SEALED by the Holy Spirit?

Jesus is the one who gives the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the agent and it is once and for all.


that stand up for the Holy Spirit

What are you implying here? That believers who do not conform to this teaching (which many see as false) do not stand up for the Holy Spirit/ Jesus?

That is a judgmental comment.


you have inspired me to not be ashamed of the Lord my GOD

Does this mean you were ashamed of Jesus?

:scratch:scratch:scratch

Mopsie
April 16th, 2008, 12:27 PM
:scratch:scratch What does this mean? where is scripture does it say if we do not believe in tongues that we grieve the Holy Spirit?



So, when your fiance repented and asked Jesus to be his Lord and Savior, you're saying he was not SEALED by the Holy Spirit?

Jesus is the one who gives the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the agent and it is once and for all.



What are you implying here? That believers who do not conform to this teaching (which many see as false) do not stand up for the Holy Spirit/ Jesus?

That is a judgmental comment.



Does this mean you were ashamed of Jesus?

:scratch:scratch:scratch

You are right in saying that when we accept Christ we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38. The unfortunate truth is that the majority of us - including myself at one time leave it at that. For me personally, when I began praying for God to guide and convict my heart through the power of the Holy Spirit - this is when my life truly changed; I was able to begin to deal with the sinful nature Paul talks about in Romans and see myself as the new creation Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians (5:17). When I began praying that the Lord would take the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within me and to move in my life in a powerful way - this is when Scripture like 1 John 1:8-10 and James 5:16 came alive in my life. When we take Scripture like 1 Corinthians 14:39,40 and eliminate it from our churches and teaching - we grieve the work of the Holy Spirit as mentioned in Ephesians 4:29,30.

As for being a better witness - asking the Lord to move the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in my heart in a powerful way has given me a boldness that I have never had before. Fear is gone and this means that I am now sharing and evangelizing like never before because I have the power of the Holy Spirit actively working in my life.

For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline. 2 Timothy 1:7

If I had continued living as I had, believing I had the Holy Spirit but not actively seeking the power of the Holy Spirit I would not be growing as I am.

For this reason, I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God... 2 Timothy 1:6

Additional food for thought:

Do we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit in a Sunday school class, take a survey, answer a questionaire? I wish I had known this sooner, but it cannot happen this way. The working of the Holy Spirit to give believers gifts is received through the laying on of hands. Make no mistake, this is not how we receive the Holy Spirit - laying on of hands is for believers to receive the power of the Holy Spirit to impart gifts to them. This separates the working of the Holy Spirit from the natural abilities God has given us.

which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 2 Timothy 1:6

I used to be scared of all of this. It freaked me out because it all goes beyond our comprehension and into a dimension that is truly out of this world. However, if the Holy Spirit is a gift from God for us believers to have as our helper and Counselor - then we need not be afraid for all things from God are good, we just need to take advantage of them if we want to grow and be useful for the purpose of building up His kingdom.

:hug

Kliska
April 16th, 2008, 12:41 PM
Additional food for thought:

Do we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit in a Sunday school class, take a survey, answer a questionaire? I wish I had known this sooner, but it cannot happen this way. The working of the Holy Spirit to give believers gifts is received through the laying on of hands. Make no mistake, this is not how we receive the Holy Spirit - laying on of hands is for believers to receive the power of the Holy Spirit to impart gifts to them. This separates the working of the Holy Spirit from the natural abilities God has given us.

which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 2 Timothy 1:6

I agree on a certain level with a lot of what you say here; however, you do not have to have hands laid on you to receive the Holy Spirit. Can it be done that way? Yes; however, it is not the act of laying on of the hands that specifically imparts it. Everyone that Faithes on Christ is indwelt whether or not there were laying on of hands involved.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It's not about how much of the Spirit we have, but how much of ourselves we yield over to God who works on us, in us, and through us via the Holy Spirit.

Princess1959
April 16th, 2008, 12:41 PM
The working of the Holy Spirit to give believers gifts is received through the laying on of hands. Make no mistake, this is not how we receive the Holy Spirit - laying on of hands is for believers to receive the power of the Holy Spirit to impart gifts to them. This separates the working of the Holy Spirit from the natural abilities God has given us.
So you're saying that those of us who do not believe this way don't have any spiritual gifts? I've never had this laying on of hands - but I know what my spiritual gifts are! I think this is just an area where christians are going to have to "agree to disagree". There are strong feelings on both sides - and I really doubt people are going to change them.