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C_J_M
April 16th, 2008, 12:47 PM
Much of my reply here is already on another post so, I'm simply copying, and adding to that. To me, the Key Scripture regarding tongues would be this:
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1 Corinthians 13:7-10 (King James Version)

"Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
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NOTE THE PHRASE "whether there be tongues, they shall cease..." "Cease means "to end".

In a number of Pentecostal Churches I have attended, some people have shunned anyone who did NOT speak in so-called "tongues". I'm not impressed with this so-called "gift". This gift was used in the past to establish the Church, which is the Body of Christ and NOT the organized church. I've experienced in my own neighborhood cruelty at a Pentecostal church when I had explained how I was gossipped and slandered against at a previous job that I had. Of course, at times I was witnessing Christ! So, my question to anyone who is pro-tongues is this: "Where is the Love of Christ in such a church if everyone claims "tongues" but doesn't have Love?

ANOTHER KEY SCRIPTURE:
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1 Corinthians 13:1-5 (King James Version)

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
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Notice the words "become as sounding brass". Well, I don't want to be one of those!

In some cases, I've noticed that a catholic church may be nearby to the Pentecostal church so, some so-called believers simply "church-hop" and think they're saved simply because they are bi-lingual. This is somewhat true in my neighborhood. This is not the gift of tongues but the advantages of culture. Either one or both parents of the person's family speaks more than one language so the child benefits from this cultural heritage.

Another point is that, many years ago, I had read an article on "Glossolalia" in Psychology Today, and the author, a psychologist, was being quite insightful; that people were simply putting together syllables that would come to their mind and were saying that it was a language, which it wasn't! Maybe do a Google search on "Glossolalia" and check for yourselves.

The Lord speaks plainly to people. He doesn't have a secret language, nor is there a "special anointing" as some Pentecostalists say. All of this is simply an invention of pride.

HERE IS MY RELATED REPLY TO ANOTHER POST - "Is there something Sinister Going on?"
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One gift we should all pray for (and I've prayed for it and have it) is Discernment. A number of christians want something like "tongues" which to me is useless if you can't discern the times or the seasons. Jesus Himself talked about this when he rebuked the Pharisees:
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Matthew 16:1-4 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

So, since we're on this Bulletin Board looking for the Signs of the Lord's return, this is the gift that should be sought after most of all. I do warn everyone, however, with this scripture:

James 1:17 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Remember: the 'gift' is perfect, but WE ARE NOT! Having this gift, for someone who is sensitive, as I am, has a price. If you really can stand being a spiritual submarine and "dive" into the depths past the boats floating on the so-called "calm" surface, and you have discernment, then you will see the Sin; the corruption; viscious human nature hiding behind a friendly face. On and on.

There are limits to what we can handle. I call this "the limits of creaturliness". There are things spiritual, emotional and physical that we can't handle. It's an immature christian that says "I can handle anything". Now it's true that the scripture does say:

Philippians 4:13 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Nevertheless, remember that Paul had a thorn in the flesh which the Lord didn't remove.

So, to answer the main thread: Is there something sinister going on? That's a definite "YES" because of the continuing presence of Satan and his demons. Until we're in our Resurrection bodies, we have to contend with them through the flesh and resist them by Jesus, the power of prayer and the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That's the only way I know of to handle anything "sinister" that's out there.
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So, I say to everyone here to pray rather for the gift of Discernment and maybe this so-called "gift" of tongues will simply go away! And if it DOES go away, then that's proof that the Lord wasn't involved in this gift to begin with. Those who "keep" their gift of tongues, if they really have it, shouldn't think too highly of themselves, however, because I've noticed that this tongues phenomenon is especially susceptible to immature believers at the least, and the unsaved at the worst.

Again, the Love of Christ is the first thing I would look for in any bible-believing church, not "Tongues", not "Signs and Wonders" or any other thing that is sensational; otherwise what's the point of attending, etc.?:thinking

Mopsie
April 16th, 2008, 01:04 PM
I agree on a certain level with a lot of what you say here; however, you do not have to have hands laid on you to receive the Holy Spirit. Can it be done that way? Yes; however, it is not the act of laying on of the hands that specifically imparts it. Everyone that Faithes on Christ is indwelt whether or not there were laying on of hands involved.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It's not about how much of the Spirit we have, but how much of ourselves we yield over to God who works on us, in us, and through us via the Holy Spirit.

Amen. I agree - I do not believe that we receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands - the Holy Spirit indwells in us when we accept Christ. However, Paul is clear that Timothy received the gift - his calling or spiritual gifts - through the laying on of hands.


It's not about how much of the Spirit we have, but how much of ourselves we yield over to God who works on us, in us, and through us via the Holy Spirit.

Amen and Amen!

Mopsie
April 16th, 2008, 01:08 PM
So you're saying that those of us who do not believe this way don't have any spiritual gifts? I've never had this laying on of hands - but I know what my spiritual gifts are! I think this is just an area where christians are going to have to "agree to disagree". There are strong feelings on both sides - and I really doubt people are going to change them.

I once felt that I'd known my spiritual gifts. I'd done assesments and also took a Sunday school class but I was never at peace. It wasn't until I asked God to move the Holy Spirit indwelling in me and received the laying on of hands however, that I'd realized what I thought were my spiritual gifts were changed and I felt at peace because I knew that it was the Holy Spirit that had supernaturally worked within me rather than believing what an assesment had said.

:hug

goinghome
April 16th, 2008, 01:19 PM
Mopsie and Rachel's Dream, IMHO, you are speaking of the process of sanctification. That's where we (our flesh) is diminished and the Holy Spirit is flourishing in us, changing us to be more like Christ. This is not acquired by laying on of hands but by our complete submission of our own will to Christ's will. You differentiate between being "filled with the Spirit" and and receiving the "power of the Holy Spirit (or gifts)". There is no real distinction in scripture. When we are saved we receive the Holy Spirit. Some do not experience the fullness of the Spirit with all of the gifts God wants them to use because of their infancy in Christ. Whether it is an unwillingness to submit their own will to Him, or a lack of education or discernment..... sometimes it just takes a good long while to develop. But again sanctification should not be mistaken for additional "infillings" of the Spirit to receive gifts. The gifts are there alredy but until we mature in Christ we won't understand all that He wants for us. The gifts are never for man's edification of himself, but always for God's will and workings in the lives of others. Sing4Him has posted a good explanation of this in another thread, have you already read that? Do you still disagree?

I don't believe these gifts have ceased and the scripture used to back this up is out of context. 1st Corinthians 13 should not be used to say the gifts have ceased because that which is perfect has not yet come (has Jesus set up the Millennial kingdom yet, has knowledge, prophecy ceased.....) The proper application of the gifts would be the need for them. The early Church needed them to establish the Church. There may be parts of the world which still need them and where they might be applicable. But we, the Church, in America should not still be seeking signs and wonders, that is for unbelievers. Most unbelievers in America are such by choice, not by lack of gospel availability or proven truths.

Sing4Him
April 16th, 2008, 01:30 PM
FYI-- the miraculous gifts were given specifically to the apostles specifically.

BlessedinHim
April 16th, 2008, 01:45 PM
FYI-- the miraculous gifts were given specifically to the apostles specifically.

Where does it say that? And what is considered miraculous?

Isnt any gift from God miraculous?

Princess1959
April 16th, 2008, 01:59 PM
Goinghome - what an excellent post! Very clear and concise and easy to understand.

Mopsie
April 16th, 2008, 02:15 PM
Where does it say that? And what is considered miraculous?

Isnt any gift from God miraculous?

Amen! I've been looking for that part of Scripture for years! :scratch It's funny how often people refer to what happened in Acts as an exclusive thing but two books later Paul admonishes us not to discourage speaking in tongues in 1 Corinthians 14:39,40 when it is done in proper order.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is confused by this! :hat

goinghome
April 16th, 2008, 02:19 PM
Goinghome - what an excellent post! Very clear and concise and easy to understand.

:hug Wow, now that's a first.... me? easy to understand? :aha Thanks so much for your kind compliment.

Kliska
April 16th, 2008, 02:47 PM
You differentiate between being "filled with the Spirit" and and receiving the "power of the Holy Spirit (or gifts)". There is no real distinction in scripture. When we are saved we receive the Holy Spirit. Some do not experience the fullness of the Spirit with all of the gifts God wants them to use because of their infancy in Christ. Whether it is an unwillingness to submit their own will to Him, or a lack of education or discernment..... sometimes it just takes a good long while to develop. But again sanctification should not be mistaken for additional "infillings" of the Spirit to receive gifts. The gifts are there alredy but until we mature in Christ we won't understand all that He wants for us. The gifts are never for man's edification of himself, but always for God's will and workings in the lives of others.

:thumb The gifts come via the Spirit; you have the Spirit you automatically have access to the gifts that come through Him. Take Pentecost for example, those who spoke in tongues did so after the Spirit was poured out, there was no laying on of hands, yet foreign tongues was still a gift manifested then.

I also think that the gifts are indeed for today (or verses like those in Corinthians would make no sense); but different gifts will occur where they are needed. I've read about, and heard trustworthy testimony that the gift of healing, for example, has been manifested where the gospel has never been preached before when a Christian comes into a village and starts preaching the gospel and people begin converting. Also, IMO, the more "subtle" gifts are often ignored by individuals and the Church unfortunately, but that doesn't make them any less "miraculous" because it is still the Spirit at work.