Last wishes of a dying woman...

[Vickimac]

Hi Brian- I am really sorry to hear of your mothers illness. As a mom, I also understand her concerns and have the same for one of my sons.
Rest assured, if she is saved, the eternal home that God has promised IS very real and God will wipe every tear from her eye one day. But in the here and now, she needs to know she will be with you again.

You say you have lurked for over a yr so I'm not sure that anyone is going to convince you through discussion that God exists. Since you said you are "more interested in the scholary aspect of the Bible" I suggest you find the nearest Family Christian book store. Have you read Lee Strobels books "Case for Christ" or "Case for Faith"? There's a good start but you can find hundreds & hundreds of good informative books including books on prophecy that can show you that the bible is true. That helped me alot in the early yrs of my faith.

The thing is, you can read alot, you can listen with your ears, and we can all talk til we are blue in the face but until you are willing to open you heart, God is not going to reveal himself to YOU on a personal level. No one can do that for you.
I used to go to church growing up too, I used to try & read the bible, but it was all really just puzzling to me. (I actually used to sit & smoke in the rest room in the basement of the church during Sunday School)!

It wasn't until I really needed Jesus in my adult life that I sincerely asked God to show himself to me - not as a challenge, but as a real sincere in-the-heart request out of need - that He did reveal himself. Once I had that heart knowledge, the bible became alive. Things made so much more sense in it and the head knowledge increased. Your spiritual eyes are opened with salvation.

There are a million reasons to believe in God and Christ resurrected. And once you do, God will confirm His presence in your life in so many ways you can't imagine. True, anyone can "convince" themselves of something if they want to believe it enough, but the Living God actually confirms His presence in the life of the believer. He's been there way too many times for me to not believe in Him. There is head knowledge and there is heart knowledge and God starts with you truly opening your heart to the possiblility. I would imagine that with your moms condition, this would be a sincere place to start asking God to make himself known to you. He can comfort you. Not in a way that you just "convince" yourself, but He can really assure your heart, so that you know that you know that you know and guess what: He already loves you. He loves us before we are ever forgiven of our sin.

I used to think I could never be good enough. Well I am still not nearly good enough and I was right- I never could be. That is exactly why Jesus came to take my place. And even sinners like me will meet your mom in heaven someday. I am praying I'll meet you too. :hug

:pray

[Adol Christin]

I'd like to thank everyone for their heartfelt responses and well wishes, and apologize for taking so long to reply. Some of you have made some very interesting points, and I appreciate the words of encouragement. I've been reading the Bible, along with a guide book that's helping me to better understand what I'm reading. My favorite book so far is Mathew. However...

...I came across a documentary recently that was so well done and academically sound that it rocked what little faith I was beginning to build. I really don't see how what was presented can be disputed by any rational person. I ask for the sake of my "soul" and to honor my mother's wishes that someone here who is well educated on the Bible watch the following video's I post (it adds up to about 30 minutes or so) and then explain the Christian point of view, because it really made me question everything all over again. Please, someone debunk this debunking.

Quick note - Some might find it slightly offensive, because I think in the very beginning there is a voice over of a comedian poking fun at Catholocism, but after that it gets very, very interesting. If you want just skip forward to about the 1:15 mark.

I thank you in advance.

-Brian

First one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqQ1vt7y1iU
Second part:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uChry_3CkhE
Third part:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oydljFj8AI

[leelee2581]

Hi Brian-
I am so sorry to hear about your mother. My mom, too, has struggled with cancer many times. This is a hard place that both of you are in, and my heart goes out to you.
The first YouTube video is not very accurate. I was planning to be an archaeologist /Egyptologist when I grew up and had to deal with these issues when I came to faith. The ancient "gods" were very human. They ate, slept, drank, gambled, and so forth. They used humans as pawns in their little games, and destroyed life without a thought. The Babylonian Flood myth says that mankind was spared only because the Babylonian gods didn't want to work in the fields!
Other times, the ancient gods were controlled by humans, such as the Egyttian gods. Their statutes were dressed and anointed because the gods couldn't do it themselves. The Egyptians wore amulets and made clay figurines in the attempt to bend the gods to their will. To me, those "gods" are frauds. If you put your trust in a human, they will fail you sooner or later.
This is where our God comes in. He has never failed on a promise that He has given. There are several examples of this, with Abraham and Noah in Genesis. Our God also has chesed, which is Hebrew for "abiding or unfailing love". His love never stops, even we push him away or ignore Him. As you read your Bible, ask Him to show you what the text is saying. You'll feel silly at first, but He never ignores if you ask!
One last thought: Check out Psalm 31:7-8. This passage was a big help to me in a time when I struggled with God's love. I thought that He was inconsistent like my own father(which He's not).
"I am glad and rejoice in your unfailing love(chesed),
for you have seen my affliction(fears, tears, etc.)
and knew the anguish in my soul(He really cares, Brian.)
You have not abandoned me to my enemies(fears, anxiety, etc.)
but have set my feet in a spacious place(away from or after your troubles).
May you find God's peace,
Amanda

[Adol Christin]

Thank you for the reply Amanda. I hope your mom is doing okay. Since you seem to know this stuff pretty well, maybe you can help me with this (keep in mind stories of Horus came thousands of years before Jesus):

Some parallels between Horus and Jesus Christ:

1. Horus born of a virgin. <> Jesus born of a virgin.

2. The foster father of Horus was Seb or Seph. <> Jesus was fostered by Joseph.

3. Horus was of royal descent. <> Jesus was of royal descent.

4. Horus birth accompanied by three solar deities [star gazers] who followed by the morning star of Sirius bearing gifts. <> Jesus birth accompanied by
three wise men [Zoroastrian star gazers] who followed by a star “in the east” bearing gifts.

5. The birth of Horus announced by angels. <> The birth of Jesus announced by angels.

6. Herut tried to murder the infant Horus. <> Herod slaughtered every first born in an attempt to kill Jesus the forthcoming messiah.

7. Horus is baptized at age 30 by Anup the Baptiser at a river. <> Jesus is baptized at age 30 by John the Baptist at a river.

8. Horus resists temptation by the evil Sut [Sut was to be the precursor for the Hebrew Satan] on a high mountain. <> Jesus resists temptation by Satan on a high mountain.

9. Horus had 12 followers. <> Jesus had 12 disciples.

10. Horus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water. <> Jesus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water.

11. Horus raised someone from the grave [his father Osiris] <> Jesus raised Lazarus [notice the name similarity] from the grave. Lazarus is short for Elasarus - the “us” on the end is romanized. Elasarus was derived from “El-Asar” which was the name given to Osiris.

12. Horus was buried and resurrected in the city of Anu. <> The place Bethany mentioned in John was a derivative of the words “Bet” and “Anu” which translates “the house of Anu”. The ‘y’ on the end of bethany is interchangeable with the letter ‘u’.

13. Horus was killed by crucifixtion. <> Jesus was crucified.

14. Horus was accompanied by two thieves at the crucifixtion. <> Jesus was crucified with two thieves.

15. Horus was buried in a tomb at Anu. <> Jesus was buried in a tomb located in Bethany [Bet-Anu].

16. Horus was resurrected after 3 days. <> Jesus was “said” to resurrected after over a period of three days.

17. The resurrection of Horus was announced by three women. <> The resurrection of Jesus was announced by three women.

18. Horus was given the titel KRST which means “anointed one” <> Jesus was given the title Christ [Christos] meaning “anointed one”

The list goes on...

What's even more frustrating to me is that it doesn't end with Horus! From my research I've discovered many of these same similiarities with other "Gods" who came before Jesus, such as: Krishna, Mirtha, Attis, and so on...

How is this? Thanks in advance!

-Brian

[Praise Warrior]

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycatwho1.html
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html

[Adol Christin]

Wow, thank you! I'll read this sometime tomorrow and report back then. :thumb

-Brian

[Deepcallstodeep]

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycatwho1.html
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html

Brian... Praise Warrior is right on sending you to the Christian Thinktank. You will find excellent, careful, academic apologetics on this site. A friend sent it to me as a new believer and it helped me a lot!!!

:thumb:thumb Praise Warrior!!!

Praying for you on your journey, Brian. Glad you are here.

[leelee2581]

Hi Brian-
I hope that everything is going well with you today! It has been awhile since I have read up on my Egyptian mythology.:) I'll try to keep my answers short and sweet-there are coincidences where things from other cultures line up in stories, and that holds true with Horus and Jesus.
1.Virgin birth:
Horus' birth was anything but pure. His father, Osiris, had been killed by his brother, Set(or Seb). Isis, his mother, couldn't restore Osiris to full life by sympathetic magic(spells and the like), but she was able to get Osiris "aroused" enough to produce a son.(sorry-there really is no way to put it cleanly). Jesus was concieved without man's help by the Holy Spirit. Mary was literally untouched.
2.Foster father/Angels/Deities at birth:
Horus hunted from the moment of his birth. Deities might have announced it, angels could have brought it(there is no record of either in any Horus stories I looked at), but his foster father, Seb(Set) wanted him dead from the git-go. He knew that Horus would rule over the gods if he lived. Jesus escaped for two years before Herod set orders to kill the boys in Bethlehem. Jesus' foster father, Joseph, was commanded by God to bear the shame of a pregnant fiancee and be shunned by their friends and family. He did so willingly.
3. Burial and resurrection/Crucifixtion: In the case of Horus, crucifixtion is made up. Crucifixtion was an invention of the Romans, not the gods of Egypt. It was fashionable to "update" religious texts and include other gods and practices. Jesus' crucifixtion was foretold in Psalm 22, also known as the "suffering servant "psalm. This described crucifixtion about three to four thousand years before it was even invented. This makes Horus being crucified and killed with two theives highly unlikely.
4.Burial at Anu
Horus may have been buried at Anu. That I'm not going to dispute. However, did he stay dead? His followers claim that he rose from the dead, but had no evidence. Nowhere does it say in the texts that Horus rose bodily from the grave. That alone zaps any credibility he had. Jesus not only rose from the dead, he walked out of the tomb! All of his disciples thought that he was gone, but when he appeared to them, they changed from a rag-tag group of depressed men into ardent evangelists willing to die for this risen Christ. That change can only mean that it actually happened. Plus, it is supported by "outside" texts(read:outside of Christianity). On a final note here, Jesus was buried in a garden tomb outside of Jerusalem-it was the Sabbath when he was laid to rest. The followers would not have been able to get him to Bethany(about a day's journey) before becoming unfit to observe the Sabbath.
A lot of the other items(resists temptation, baptised, miracles, etc.) are common themes in mythology. Horus died to avenge his father's death-Jesus died to save the world. Many Egyptian texts were written to make their gods look good. Horus is no different than a fairy tale. Jesus lived and breathed on this earth-no other "god" can claim it and have it backed up by multiple sources. I hope that I didn't get too preachy for you-this really is confusing stuff! I also hope that I cleared up some issues for you.
Take care and be blessed,
Amanda

[Adol Christin]

Well, it's been a year and I find myself once again on this page. A lot has happened.

It pains me to report that my mom lost her battle with cancer about three weeks ago. Today is her birthday. I won't go into it because it's just too painful right now.

Theologically my perspective has changed since I was last here. I'm sorry to say that I am the farthest from believing in the Bible than I ever have been in my life. And this is not a direct reaction to my mom dying - I'm not holding any sort of festering bitterness towards Christianity (although my mom's faith was instrumental in her death - had she accepted the chemotherapy earlier rather than rely on her faith she might still be alive).

Just to clarify, I'm really not here to troll or antagonize anyone. I want to believe in what you all do; it would be comforting to know my mom is in heaven. But I can't. I'll explain why as respectfully as I can, and hopefully we can get a good conversation going.

Presently I'm in a philosophy class titled Science and Religion class. Despite what your initial reactions might be, I assure you it examines both sides without bias (though there are assumptions). Several people, events and ideas have given me some grief. They are the following:

Copernican and Galileian controversies
The Darwinian controversies
Varieties with Christianity
Rationalism vs Empiricism

I'll give a brief summary of each (hopefully you don't feel like I'm talking down to you) and then explain how it applies to my understanding of Christianity.

Copernicus and later Galileo both proved that the universe is not geocentric, but rather heliocentric. What this means is that the earth is not the center of the universe. Far from it. This had huge Biblical implications, which suggest that we are the center of God's creation. We now know that we are not the "center" that in fact the earth circles the sun, not the other way around.

Darwin - the scourge of religion! Okay, not really. But clearly Christian thought is in conflict with biology. But essentially the theory of evolution (and when scientists call it a theory it's much different than you or I having a "theory" of something) states that there is a process called natural selection, and that man evolved from a much more primitive state. Again, this contradicts Genesis.

The Varieties within Christianity - Probably one of the biggest problems in my opinion. You have four main schools of thought: liberal protestant, modernist, neo orthodoxy, and evangelical. Some read the Bible literally, others allegorically. The problem for me comes with a lack of consensus within the religion itself - not even its followers can agree on things, and as a result each denomination claims to be the right one. Because of these different readings of the Bible you have the apologists, who constantly modify their beliefs to fit in with the new knowledge that natural science brings us, and the fundamentalists, who reject the new knowledge as false.

Rationalism vs Empiricism - The empiricist states that we know things through experience, the rationalist states we know things through reason. Hopefully at this point we all know that we need both, but the problem remains - we can't experience God in the same way we experience the natural world. That is, we can't "test" God. When things go your way it's "prise be to God!" and when they don't go your way it's "...Well, it's all part of his plan!". So to use the example of a miracle - sometimes it happens (for the sake of argument) and sometimes it doesn't - either way neither disproves God! So there's no accountability or testability.

All right, whew. So those are some basic difficulties I encounter. Now, more specifically...

I have a real, real problem with Christians denying that the universe is roughly 13.7 billion years old. You either have to not read the Bible literally and begrudgingly accept this, or deny it and stick by the idea that creation is only 6,000 years old. Now, to address the fundamentalists, I usually encounter two schools of thought - either you base your 6,000 year belief on scientists outside the mainstream who contradict the vast, vast, majority of scientific knowledge, or you fall back on the Bible being infallible, and thus disproving anything that contradicts it - so it is a self validating book - that is, it is true because it says it's true.

This goes hand in hand with Darwinism. Christians (sorry to generalize) will say that it's a "theory" - well, yes. But a theory in scientific terms means that it has so much overwhelming evidence that it is as close to a fact that it can be while still leaving room for possible revision. That's the wonderful thing about science - it's willing to admit it could be wrong, and change it's stance based on evidence. Whereas believers refuse to believe they could be wrong, and refuse to change their belief in the Bible, despite contradicting evidence.

I realize that because of the believers refusal to concede, and refusing to consider they could be wrong, that we are working from different frame works. If you deny the universe being 13.7 billion years old, a fact that's accepted by 99.9% of the scientific community (including the likes of Stephen Hawking) then how can we proceed? We're working from two different understandings of the age of our universe - we're playing the same game but with a different set of rules.

Lastly, it seems to me that believers seek out science that reinforces their belief, whereas non believers seek out science to find what they believe. There is no agenda other than the truth, which is not the case for believers, whose agenda is to prove an already held belief. I hope that makes sense.

Anyway, those are some difficulties I have. Now, that's not to say that I don't acknowledge there could be a God. I'm not arrogant enough to dismiss the idea. It's quite possible. But to embrace the views of a religion, be it Christianity or Islam, seems foolhardy to me.

I look forward to your responses.

-Brian

[steve53]

Brian - I'm so very sorry for your loss. If your Mom was saved, as you have previously indicated, then rest assured she is in Heaven. Praise the Lord.

I could type a lot of specific answers to the questions you raise but I think you might do better reading some stuff on your own first. Might I suggest a few web pages and sites with very good resource articles/materials? Click through to what ever other links catch your eye.

One more thing - If you read some of the threads on this forum you will see that even Bible believing Christians have questions and we discuss and debate them all the time.

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-bible.html

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/otherbiblestudies/howaccurateisthebible/accuracy1.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/interpretations-Christian.html

http://www.icr.org/bible-accurate/