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hasperjet
January 13th, 2010, 10:33 AM
I agree - The argument Lindsey et al give for a pre-trib rapture is that the above discourse is a programme of events, thus making it possible to anticipate the rapture, which contradicts the requirement to expect the Lord at any moment. So the answer for pre-tribbers (and that is the flavor of this site) is the 2nd coming. For post tribbers there isn't really a difference as far as I can tell.

Gary Rich
January 13th, 2010, 02:46 PM
yes i am very much a pre-trib believer, that our rapture flight will happen before the Tribulation Judgements as described in the Book of Revelation begin, sorry i didn't mean to be confusing

yes we church age believers are the Bride of Christ, and as such we will be raptured out of here before the Tribulation Judgements start, that is why the rapture is called the " Blessed Hope "

also- to the comment that once we arrive in heaven, our first thought may be that " i could have done so much more " for God in my earthly life, i am sure we all will have that thought

how much of our earthly lives do we really spend on eternal matters, and how much do we waste on earthly issues that have no eternal value, probably alot

2/3 of my life i wasted on doing nothing for God, its just been the last 1/3 of my life that i have devoted to living my life for eternal value, for God's Glory

MandyMonster
January 13th, 2010, 03:17 PM
Has anyone read "Shadow Government" by Grant Jeffrey?? OMG!! That will "scare" you!! I was in prayer after about half way through. Now, to read the last half!!!

Kays
January 13th, 2010, 09:35 PM
At the Rapture the Lord will meet us in the air. At the Second Coming,
he will touch the Mt. of Olivet.

BlessedAssurance
January 14th, 2010, 06:04 AM
Yes, Betty, I did read Jeffrey's book. Reading about the weapons was sobering. Alarming, disturbing, horrifying.... :fear

I don't think I managed to finish it either. I intend to, but needed a break. I leant it to my parents. By the time I get it back, I'm sure I'll be ready to finish it.

me go!
January 14th, 2010, 06:27 AM
It also notes that every one will see Him. At the rapture, we are snatched away, taken like a thief in the night. IMO, this is the second coming.

stephen
January 14th, 2010, 07:33 AM
my mother was borne in 1948- i beleave hers to be the generation to see the rapture and the second coming of CHRIST. time is runninng out and CHRIST is very shortly about to rapture HIS church- maby a few short years yet though- use time wisely to teach unsaved brothers and sisters about CHRIST and not taking the number of the beast so we can all share eturnity together in the kingdom of GOD.







lots of love stephen

Gilgal
January 14th, 2010, 08:34 AM
from the RR homepage:




THIS GENERATION
By Daymond Duck
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The disciples asked Jesus, “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age” (Matthew 24:3)?

After several comments, Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled” (Matthew 24:34).

Controversy surrounds what He said. Some say “this generation” means the generation that was alive when Jesus was speaking. Most who believe this way spiritualize the Bible. They say Jesus came back about 2,000 years ago and that His return was a spiritual return. Others say “this generation” means the generation that sees “all these things” that Jesus had just mentioned in Matthew chapter 24. Most who believe this way take the Bible literally. And they say the return of Jesus is still future. It seems more likely that this second group is right.

For one thing, Jesus talked about “the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the Holy place” (Matthew 24:15). That didn’t happen in the generation Jesus was speaking to. But it will happen in the future when the Antichrist defiles the rebuilt Temple 3 years after a seven-year covenant for peace in the Middle East. There’s no evidence of a seven-year covenant for peace in the Middle East when Jesus said these things.

For another thing, Jesus talked about “great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world, no nor ever shall be” (Matthew 24:21). It’s a stretch to say that 70 A.D. was worse than the Flood, worse than WWI, worse than WW II, worse than the Holocaust, or worse than anything that will happen in the future.

For another thing, Jesus said, “Except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:21). No one came close to destroying the Romans Empire or everyone on earth in 70 A.D. There’s no evidence that Jesus came back and prevented anything like this from happening.

For another thing, Jesus said, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matthew 24:29-31). There’s no evidence of a darkened sun and moon, falling stars, everyone seeing Jesus, everyone on earth mourning, trumpets sounding, and all the elect being gathered together in 70 A.D.

Finally, Jesus told the parable of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32). Many commentators believe the fig tree represents Israel. Many believe that Jesus was saying when you see Israel back in the land know that the Second Coming is near. Israel had to be destroyed before she could come back into being.

How Long is “This Generation”

The Bible is vague and speculation abounds on this. After many years of saying we don’t know how long a generation is, this ministry has turned to saying, “We believe the terminal generation started in 1948 and it is our opinion that it will last 70 to 80 years.”

The major reason for this change is that we have a better understanding of Psalm 90. It is the first of eleven Psalms that were written by Moses. Many believe it’s the oldest Psalm in the Bible. It begins with a comment about all generations. Moses said, “Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations” (Psalm 90:1). It talks about God forming or creating the earth (Psalm 90:2). It says, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night” (Psalm 90:4). Peter said it this way, “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (II Peter 3:8). Psalm 90 makes a reference to the Flood and the brevity of life (Psalm 90:4-8). It turns to a discussion of our days and years (Psalm 90:9). Then, Moses said, “The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away” (Psalm 90:10). We will come back to this, but for the time being let’s stick to the remainder of the Psalm. It mentions the anger and wrath of God which could be a reference to the Tribulation Period (Zephaniah 1:14-15; Revelation 6:16-17). It asks God to teach us to number our days that we may use our precious days wisely (Psalm 90:12). It calls upon the Lord to return which could be a reference to the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation Period and asks how long it will be (Psalm 90:13). Then, it closes with four verses that can well be applied to the Millennium (Psalm 90:14-17).

Now, let’s go back to verse 10 which reads, “The days of our years are threescore years and ten (70 years); and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years (80 years), yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.” We are not predicting a date, but assuming that the terminal generation started in 1948, and it will be 70 to 80 years long, it appears that God will fulfill everything including the Rapture, Tribulation Period and Second Coming, in 70 or perhaps up to 80 years (by 2018, but He may delay up to 2028). If one subtracts seven years (from 2017 or up to 2018) for the Tribulation Period, and an unspecified amount of time for the period between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation Period, it’s obvious that the Rapture could happen any time.

Prophecy Plus Ministries
Daymond & Rachel Duck
daymondduck@bellsouth.net
rachelduck@bellsouth.net

JesusIsLord
January 14th, 2010, 08:39 AM
Any reference in Matthew 24 or the other Gospels to Jesus' Coming is to His Second Coming, not His Coming for the Church. Same goes for the "thief in the night" reference: Always Second Coming. Some may ask, "why"?

1) Church had not yet been born. Jesus would not be revealing a mystery to a group of people which it would not apply.

2) A thief comes to steal and destroy. Hardly a proper analogy for when Jesus comes for His Church. At Christ's Second Coming, He will steal the world back and destroy the evildoers. We can say that He comes for us "like a thief in the night" ONLY as in we dont know when it will happen. But the Second Coming will also happen at a time they least not expect it. Even for surviving believers at this time,. they will not know the day or hour that He comes. They will see the signs and know it is close, but they will not be able to pinpoint even to the day when He will come to steal and destroy. Daniel tells us that from the time that the AoD occurs, there will be 1290 days and says that the person that waits 1335 days will be blessed (Daniel 12:11-12). Knowing this, and knowing that in Jewish years, the first half of the trib is 1260 days and the last half of the trib is 1260 days, on what day do we place the Second Coming? The answer: We cant. There is a period of time (75 days) that we do not know when He will show up.

3) Paul was the first one to reveal the mystery of the Rapture. 1 Corinthians 15:51....."Listen, I tell you a mystery....". Jesus revealed that He would come back for those who love Him in John 14:3 (this is the rapture), but He was hardly revealing the mysterious nature of it, nor any of the details. Simply telling them it would happen is not revealing the mystery, but telling them that there is an event in the future where He will come back to take them to be where He is; the details had not yet been fully made known to them. This was given to Paul to reveal.

4) Most all post-tribbers will say the One "Taken and One left" statement in Mathew 24:40-41 refers to verse Mathew 24:31. Problem is, the original Greek has different meaning than how it reads in english. The word "taken" has a negative connotation to it, and that is because the one "taken" is taken to judgment (this is the Sheep and Goats Judgment), and the one "left" is left to enter the Millennial Kingdom. This gathering of the elect is still the Sheep and Goats Judgment (those gathered are the Sheep). The parables in Matthew 25 all backup what was being taught in Matthew 24.....He is not teaching something new but rather supporting and clarifying what had just been taught for better understanding.

5) If the Rapture is truly being talked about in this passage, the natural reading would indicate a post-tribulational rapture. This goes against many other verses in the Bible that say otherwise. Post-tribbers put a LOT of emphasis on this passage because it is one of the few that, they feel, really supports their side.

GODSWIZARD
January 14th, 2010, 04:07 PM
I feel a little like Voltaire.


Analogy......a description of it.


Voltaire was a French Philosophe who lived in the 1700s. He detested the French Monarchy.....he hated it with a passion. He longed for its fall. As the 1700s progressed Voltaire saw increasing signs that its fall and dissolution were increasingly imminent. As he neared the end of his life he said, and I paraphrase because i'm not going to look up the exact quote(s):

"The overthrow of the French Monarchy will happen soon, but I fear that I am too old and will die before I get to see it happen."

At times I feel like Voltaire.

I accepted CHRIST as LORD and SAVIOUR in March, 1980. When I did.....I thought HE was coming back sooner than later.....actually, soon. Time went on. Year passed into year. Here we are in 2010. Thirty years have passed since my salvation and the coming of the LORD I expected in 1980, or soon thereafter. Know what? It's getting closer. I know it is. I can see it, I can feel it.

But alas.....as more time goes on.....I feel like Voltaire, in that I shall die before it comes to pass.....and I get Raptured. I was age 23 at salvation. Now I am aged 53. Maranatha LORD JESUS.:pray