Will this Generation see the End of the Age? (merged)

[tweety]

Luke 21:10-19 (New International Version)

10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12"But before all this, they will lay hands on you (the 12 disciples) and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish. 19By standing firm you will gain life.
Luke 21:10-19

The part that I underlined: Does this have to happen before Jesus comes back for us in the Rapture?

Christ's disciples were delivered to the synagogues and brought before kings in the first century, this was well "before" Jacob's trouble and its "great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven."

[tweety]

When the Bible says, this generation shall surely not pass away.....that sees these things, I'm just paraphrasing here...

Does that mean my grandparents? My parents? Me, I'm 38? My children? Is it all of us or just one group?

The generation born around the time Israel became a nation .....{Mod Snip}

[JesusIsLord]

The generation born around the time Israel became a nation ....{Mod Snip}.

Sorry tweety and anyone else who adheres to this interpretation: THIS is exactly what we are NOT called to do. This is a common misinterpretation that has led to this kind of date setting. This board also does not allow it.

What are you going to say if we are still here after {Mod Snip} Will you finally concede that the Lord meant what He said when He said "No man knows about that day, not even the angels or the Son of Man"?

I'm not sure why this interpretation makes it past the mods. Hal Lindsay has had to reinterpret what he said about this in The Late Great Planet Earth (basically the same thing but with a different time span). Once that date came and went and here we still are, it was reinterpreted. I'm not saying we WILL be here longer than that, but that we ***could be***.

Couple points:

1) Israel is not the Fig Tree in Matthew 24: http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/israel-the-fig-tree-and-the-olivet-discourse/


The fig tree is often used to represent Israel in the Bible. But I don’t think that’s the case in Matt 24:32, Mark 13:28, and Luke 21:29. In these cases the Lord was using the symbolism of a budding tree which indicates that summer is coming soon to explain that the appearance of the signs he had described would mean His return was very close. This is especially clear when you see that in Luke 21:29, he included all trees, not just the fig......2) Olivet Discourse is not for the Church, therefore does not have the Rapture in view: http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-fig-tree-and-matt-24/


As you’ve noted, I’ve never believed that the fig tree reference in Matt. 24 applies to Israel’s rebirth. Nor do I believe that there’s anything in Matt. 24 concerning the Rapture. You have to remember that the Olivet discourse, though contained in three Gospels, is meant for Israel, not the Church.

The fig tree is among the last to get it’s leaves in the spring, so when it begins to bud you know that summer is really near. What I think Jesus was saying is that when the people of Israel see all the end times signs He described, they’ll know that His return is really near. That was the lesson of the fig tree. It’s a comparison, or parable. 3) The "This generation" part of Matthew 24 is in relation to the signs abound in the last days ("All these things" in verse 33): http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/are-we-the-generation-of-matt-2434/


Matt. 24:34 says that the generation being born when the end times signs begin will still be alive when all signs are fulfilled. This doesn’t mean that all the signs will be fulfilled within the span of one generation, nominally 40 years. It says that the people being born when the signs begin will still be alive at the end. So the signs will be fulfilled within their lifetimes.There is a difference between what I believe and what Jack believes though: He thinks that the people who see the signs begin to happen (key: Israel coming back as a nation in 1948) is the last generation. I dont! I think the last generation is the people who see "All these things", which Jesus spoke about at great length. This includes the signing of the covenant, the AoD, mass persecution, the Antichrist, etc. The generation that sees all these things is certainly the last generation. But we will have been raptured before ALL these things happen, so we dont need to worry about it.



I hope you dont see this as me trying to burst your bubble or get you discouraged. This does nothing to defeat the imminency of Christ's soon return for His Church......it simply means that there is no time-frame for His coming, which is exactly what He said. It could be tonight, it could be in 50 years, etc, etc. We dont know if prophecy will slow down or speed up. There are lulls and speed ups: Right now, we are in a speed up mode! Is it the last speed up mode? Maybe, but we cant be sure. We can see the mountain tops, but not the valleys in between them.

God bless,
- JIL

[Nightelf]

I'm not sure why this interpretation makes it past the mods. .

I'm assuming you mean "date framing"? It doesn't usually. In spite of their super-powers, even they don't catch everything unless you help them by using the report icon. :nod

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Sorry tweety and anyone else who adheres to this interpretation: THIS is exactly what we are NOT called to do. This is a common misinterpretation that has led to this kind of date setting. This board also does not allow it.

What are you going to say if we are still here after 2017? Will you finally concede that the Lord meant what He said when He said "No man knows about that day, not even the angels or the Son of Man"?

I'm not sure why this interpretation makes it past the mods. Hal Lindsay has had to reinterpret what he said about this in The Late Great Planet Earth (basically the same thing but with a different time span). Once that date came and went and here we still are, it was reinterpreted. I'm not saying we WILL be here longer than that, but that we ***could be***.

Couple points:

1) Israel is not the Fig Tree in Matthew 24: http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/israel-the-fig-tree-and-the-olivet-discourse/



2) Olivet Discourse is not for the Church, therefore does not have the Rapture in view: http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-fig-tree-and-matt-24/



3) The "This generation" part of Matthew 24 is in relation to the signs abound in the last days ("All these things" in verse 33): http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/are-we-the-generation-of-matt-2434/



There is a difference between what I believe and what Jack believes though: He thinks that the people who see the signs begin to happen (key: Israel coming back as a nation in 1948) is the last generation. I dont! I think the last generation is the people who see "All these things", which Jesus spoke about at great length. This includes the signing of the covenant, the AoD, mass persecution, the Antichrist, etc. The generation that sees all these things is certainly the last generation. But we will have been raptured before ALL these things happen, so we dont need to worry about it.



I hope you dont see this as me trying to burst your bubble or get you discouraged. This does nothing to defeat the imminency of Christ's soon return for His Church......it simply means that there is no time-frame for His coming, which is exactly what He said. It could be tonight, it could be in 50 years, etc, etc. We dont know if prophecy will slow down or speed up. There are lulls and speed ups: Right now, we are in a speed up mode! Is it the last speed up mode? Maybe, but we cant be sure. We can see the mountain tops, but not the valleys in between them.

God bless,
- JIL

:wave Hi JIL,

You and I have a lot that we agree on, but I just wanted to point out a few things where we might differ (I bolded some of your post... the parts I hope to address... but maybe not in order, just so you know).

1) In case you thought otherwise, Tweety was not saying that Matthew 24 was about the rapture.

2) The "no man knows the day and hour" (-type verses) are about His Second Coming (I think we agree on that), but first of all...

a) I believe that "knoweth" is in the present tense (meaning, "no one presently [at the time He spoke it] knows the day/hour of the Second Coming", not that no one will ever know... those in the future [namely, those in the trib] should have a pretty good idea, IF they are aware and watching)

b) "knoweth", as used here, carries a meaning of "intuitive knowledge" (meaning, no one will know apart from study... they won't know it intuitively, but they SHOULD know it [at that time] IF THEY HEED the Word of God, or those who will be proclaiming the Word at the time [such as the 144,000, and 2 witnesses] just like Noah did, but people disregarded His Word "and [they] knew not until the flood came and took them all away." Why didn't they "know", Noah was telling them! They were willfully ignorant. Heeding the Word of God is part of the meaning... no one will know apart from the study of the Word of God [which we now know gives a pretty good timeline for the trib period: 2520 days, plus the additional 75 found in Daniel 12]... but with study, they should know or have a pretty good idea of when His Second Coming will be, and they are exhorted to keep watch. But sadly, many won't.)

3) I do believe that God has a set time as to when the rapture will occur (after the "full allotted time for the Gentiles" [and some say "the full number", though we humans would have no way of knowing when the full number might be... I think it is both "full time" AND "full number" and I think we can have a good idea of the "full time" because of what God said in Daniel about the Gentile Kingdoms and their allotted length of time, and the two evidences (or more) that have already come to pass: Israel and Jerusalem, each 2520 years after their OT starting dates, etc]) and that, from His perspective, things don't "fluctuate" in the sense that, one moment He's on the verge of taking us in the rapture, and the next moment when things have subsided, He sits back down to wait for the next big surge of events, until it hits the breaking point or something... or that it could be years and years away yet. No, I believe there is a set time and He knows right when that is. And we believers can have a pretty good idea, based on His Word, when that could be... and it's not really based on World News (merely), though I'd say it certainly doesn't hurt to be aware of current events.

4) I don't believe that when He said "no man knows..." that He was even talking about the timing of the rapture, or that He was stating that "there is no set time-frame" for it. I don't believe that was His meaning at all (as was your last point, above).

That's all for now. :hat I always appreciate your input, JIL. :hug

ETA: I'm traveling, so I may not have time to respond any more, today, should you desire to discuss this further... just so you know. :)

[Steve53]

Hal Lindsay has had to reinterpret what he said about this in The Late Great Planet Earth (basically the same thing but with a different time span). Once that date came and went and here we still are, it was reinterpreted.

A very common misconception regarding Hal. A careful re-reading of what he wrote would be in order. :hat



I'm not sure why this interpretation makes it past the mods.

This is a conversation about the generation that would see the end times fulfilled and whether that generation is the one that saw Israel reborn, or Jerusalem being reclaimed and unified by Israel, or the beginning of the Trib......When one discusses a generation, the length of a generation becomes fair game. Since any given single member of a generation could live to 100 or older, it really is futile to attach any date ranges of any sort to any of the proposed and debated "beginning points of seeing" discussion. Too many variables, and that's why we don't permit Date Setting, Date Speculating, Date Framing, Date Suggesting, Date Alerts (Rule 11).



I'm assuming you mean "date framing"? It doesn't usually. In spite of their super-powers, even they don't catch everything unless you help them by using the report icon. :nod

:thumb

(I can be slow sometimes but I catch on - - - eventually. :lol2)

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Folks - Let's keep the discussion relevant to the generational aspect of the OP and the possibility that existing generations may see the end of the age by using scripture to support your position. Also, I would suggest that everyone review the thread from the beginning before making redundant posts.

Remember also please that "tone" is a hard thing to quantify and the use of a smiley or two or three is encouraged. :hug

[JesusIsLord]

Thanks to all who replied. I have had a heckuva weekend and havent had any sit-down time on the PC.

I'd like to answer some of the responding comments:


To NightElf: I didnt mean to demean the mods here....I think they do a great job at what they do and usually catch everything. And yes, I did mean date framing. I havent seen any legitimate member here actually say "The Lord is coming back on (enter date here)". But I see this interpretation creep up all the time, and it is absolutely date framing. It puts a time limit on when God must complete his program not only for the world, but also for the Church (since we know the Rapture will happen roughly 7 years prior to the Second Advent). And for whatever reason, it seems that this is either somewhat "acceptable" interpretation, or that it always slips past the mods....and I dont understand why.


To acceptedinthebeloved: I think we agree on most of the issues that crop up on here. On this issue, I may take it a bit further to the conservative side than you, but on the whole....we are pretty close. To address your numbered points:
1) I may have presumed too much about Tweety thinking Matt. 24 talks about the Rapture. If Tweety does not think this way, I sincerely apologize to Tweety for misunderstanding her position.

2) We are in agreement that "No man knows the day or hour" is talking about the Second Advent.
a) We agree....to the extent that this means that we may know "the season"....but not a timeframe. I do not agree, however, that "not that no one will ever know". I truly believe Jesus' words that "no one will know that time". I think we also agree on the 30+ days timeframe of when He could come after the Trib ends, and the other 45 days for cleansing and judgment. But again, there is still an unknown day or hour during those 75 days. But we wont even be around for that, so I will keep this discussion within the boundaries of what will affect us Christians, Pre-rapture.
b) Even if you are correct in this meaning (I havent studied that word in-depth), it doesnt directly affect us today: As we both agree, this was written to the Jews and for the Jews during the Tribulation. The example that you gave about the 144,000 witnesses happens during the Tribulation. Same goes for the Abomination of Desolation, the appearance of the Antichrist, the battle of Armageddon, and other events that happen in the Tribulation. Obviously, there are a lot more things revealed as it relates to the timeframe of the Second Coming once the Tribulation actually begins (at the signing of the 7 year covenant). But prior to this event, we have no idea when this timeframe begins. So I do not think the meaning of the word, "knoweth", applies to us whatsoever. Since we do not know when the signing of the covenant will happen, we cannot possibly know the timeframe that applies to the Second Advent. Once the cov is signed, then this "knoweth" will absolutely apply to anyone who studies the Word. The Lord never gave a timeframe for the Church, but only to Daniel as it relates to Israel's 70 weeks and to John as it relates to the Tribulation (the 70th Week).

3) I also agree that there is a set time when the Rapture will happen. And also a set time for every other event that follows. Having said that, the Lord made in no uncertain terms that no one but the father knows this (and now most likely Jesus in His glorified state). From our point of view, however, all we have to go on is news and signs. Actually, we dont even have signs for the rapture....the signs are rather pointing towards the Second Advent, which means we are all that much closer to the Rapture. But my point is that since we cannot measure the "fullness", or even come close to possibly knowing the number, AND since we dont know the dates.....prophecy seems to speed up and slow down (again, from OUR point of view). This is how we can know we are "in the season"....not by dates, numbers or "fullness", but by the signs. Right now, we are in warp speed, but things **could** slow down, prophetically speaking. They could also speed up even more! My argument is that we dont know how long this season lasts, and I think it is an improper interpretation to apply Israel coming back as a nation (a Pre-Tribulational event, which we both do not believe is in context in Matthew 24) for a 40,70,80, etc year timeframe until the Second Advent.

4) Again, we are in agreement. But for me, this only goes as far as God is concerned: Only He knows the timeframe and set times for all this to happen. No one on earth knows, so from our perspective, both the Rapture and the Second Advent have no "known" timeframe.....only "seasons" based on signs for the Second Advent.


To Steve53: I will concede that Hal Lindsay did not "officially" call for a date, however....in his Late Great Planet Earth book, there have been some "unlisted" revisions, such as revising that it would be Communism that will bring about Economic Collapse in America, and later shifted his focus on the EU before it was 10 nations. Then he shifted his focus onto Islam being the end-times indicator, etc, etc.

I am not trying to discredit the man....I think he's done a lot to wake people up to reality. However, he and many others have said things that didnt work out as predicted and thus had to revise the original "prophetic guesses". In the issue that's being argued, Hal Lindsay made a point that 40 years from 1948 (1988) would very likely **could** be the date of the Second Advent. And although he did not outright call this date the "definite day by when this will happen", he strongly suggested that "this is it", so to speak. Well, that year came and went without much happen and now do a search for him online: He has been called a false prophet for that. Yes, it may be exaggerated from his critics, but the fact is that I would never want to be remotely associated with being a false prophet/heretic. We have to be careful, which is why I flat out refuse to go by the popular interpretation of 70/80 years from 1948/1967 (however one interprets it). I'm not saying that it cant happen within this timeframe, but I am saying that it is not required to happen within this timeframe.


To ngraham: Surprisingly, we actually completely agree for once! YAY!! :lol2. I should clarify one thing: That the rebirth of Israel was not necessarily THE sign, but it was "a" sign. In other words, the way many interpret the passage in question is such that when Israel once again became a nation overnight, "the prophetic clock started ticking down": I do not agree with this inasmuch as there is a countdown from OUR point of view. We dont know how long this countdown will be....all we know is that at any given time, the Second advent is **at least** 7 years away and that there is no end date to when it must happen by. Saying otherwise by purporting the "70/80 years from 1948" interpretation somewhat defeats the doctrine of imminency in the "opposite sense"....so, it's not that it has to happen after a certain date, but rather that it must happen by a certain date. And as you now well know....I strongly oppose any attempt to date-frame the rapture/Second Advent.


God bless,
- JIL

[Nightelf]

Thanks to all who replied. I have had a heckuva weekend and havent had any sit-down time on the PC.

I'd like to answer some of the responding comments:


To NightElf: I didnt mean to demean the mods here....I think they do a great job at what they do and usually catch everything. And yes, I did mean date framing. I havent seen any legitimate member here actually say "The Lord is coming back on (enter date here)". But I see this interpretation creep up all the time, and it is absolutely date framing. It puts a time limit on when God must complete his program not only for the world, but also for the Church (since we know the Rapture will happen roughly 7 years prior to the Second Advent). And for whatever reason, it seems that this is either somewhat "acceptable" interpretation, or that it always slips past the mods....and I dont understand why.

- JIL

:hug As Steve53 posted, sometimes they just miss it. They can't be everywhere at once, although they are an amazing group even they need a coffee break now and then :lol2 (Except for Galactus, but he's a different matter entirely and he's usually confined to the Shed) :heh Anyhow.... we are always welcome to use the report button, if we peeps getting carried away with "date framing" or "date setting" - it does happen from time to time. :nod

[Jesus's Girl]

Your Questions Answered By Chuck Missler
This Generation Shall Not Pass...
by Chuck Missler

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PURSUE THIS TOPIC:

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RESOURCES
Romans

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Q: Who is Jesus referring to when he says, "...this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled"?

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. -Matthew 24:32-36

This passage has given rise to more conjectures and still stimulates much confusion even today.

Israel as the Fig Tree?

It has been popular to presume that the "fig tree" is a reference to Israel. That view was further popularized by Hal Lindsey's best seller, The Late Great Planet Earth,1 and Ed Weisenant's 88 Reasons that Jesus would return in 1988. The idea was that since Israel was restored to statehood on May 14, 1948, and that a generation can be defended as 40 years, that 1988 was the year to watch.

(Hal Lindsey's book remains a classic in its field; Weisenant's book, I suspect, is available at rather deep discounts.)

Jerusalem as the Fig Tree?

Some have further suggested that the vine was the symbol for Israel, and that the fig tree refers to the city of Jerusalem. Around this conjecture, some suggest that June 6, 1967, is the key year when, as a result of the Six Day War, the Old City of Jerusalem returned to Israeli control. This would make the year 2007 a year to watch. (That may well be true for other reasons.)

Terminus A Quo?

The starting point for "this generation" is a key part of the enigma. The presumption that the idiom of the "fig tree" uniquely refers to either Israel or Jerusalem seems specious. The parallel account in Luke includes, "...and all the trees," which would seem to dismiss any specific metaphorical significance to the fig tree itself.2 Attempts to identify any really consistent specification of the fig tree as a denotative metaphor seems rather fanciful.

The direct clue to the real issue is the immediately following verse:

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. -Matthew 24:36

That would seem to have in view the Harpazo, or "rapture" of the church,3 which is the principal event that is distinctively without precedent prerequisite events. It appears to be the trigger to the entire scenario. The removal of the church is also the event which removes the present blindness of Israel:4

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. -Romans 11:25

This would also seem to be consistent with apparent "Jewish-ness" of the entire Olivet Discourse, of which this parable is a part. 5 The mutual exclusiveness of Israel and the Church is intrinsic to the structure of Gabriel's Seventy Weeks prophecy to Daniel. 6

(Much of the confusion among prophecy buffs is over ecclesiology rather than eschatology.)

The "Second Coming" is preceded by a "week" of seven specific years which even include a "mid-course" correction in the midst of the week. 7 From a careful exegesis of 2 Thessalonians 2, we learn that the removal of the church is a prerequisite condition to the appearance of the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition. 8 Thus, the sequence appears as follows:

1.The Harpazo, or "rapture," of the church; 9

2. The public appearance of the Man of Sin.10

3. His coming to power sufficient to "enforce the covenant" with Israel for seven years;11

4. The Second Coming of Christ, which terminates the seven years. 12

Conclusion

The Parable of the Fig Tree seems to indicate that the generation which sees the beginning of these things will see them all. But the triggering event may well be the Harpazo, the only prophetic event that is distinctively both unspecified and imminent.

Since there is a definite seven-year period immediately preceding the Second Coming, it would seem that there could be up to as many as 33 years (40 - 7) between the Harpazo and the beginning of the seven-year period for the Man of Sin to appear, rise to power, and position himself to enforce the covenant that Isaiah calls the "Covenant with Hell." 13

These intervening years could also include the rebuilding of the Temple, the rebuilding of Babylon, and other anticipated positionings for the final climax.

To the extent that there are geopolitical and other signs on the horizon which suggest that the circumstances anticipated for the seven-year period are moving into position, these certainly support the view that the Harpazo is getting closer and may be on our very immediate horizon.

This should, indeed, intensify our priorities to immerse in the Word, reexamine our commitments to our Coming King, and seriously address each day which remains with a high degree of urgency.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. -Matthew 24:44

Are you really ready? Do you really take Him seriously?

Prove it.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/289/

[Br Philip]

the generation that see the Fig tree Bloom again , WE are this generation, and a generation is 70 years
Israels rebirth, may 1948 but I read that the conception and the planning for it was late Nov 1947 ,If we KEEP with the SAME pattern--
it should be within this Conception period we should count the generation------- either way we are talking a 6 month difference

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


(KJV) The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

I say we are real close to leaving, I would not be surprized if we see the Ez 38 war this year