Will this Generation see the End of the Age? (merged) [Archive] - Page 62

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JesusIsLord

July 18th, 2010, 11:58 AM

Jesus's Girl

July 18th, 2010, 12:51 PM

Buzz,

Being that you adhere to Israel as the fig tree and that you believe "this generation" applies to the generation that saw Israel become a nation again, then that must mean that you put an end date to which "all these things" must happen. Do you agree with Jack in believing that the Second Coming must happen by 2018 based on a generation lasting 70/80 years?

If not, how long will this generation last? I'm wondering how many here slip past the forum rule:

I'm really not trying to be smart here, or trying to disrespect anyone, I just want to understand your position and possibly learn something. I've heard people say that we ARE 100%, POSITIVELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT the last generation, framing the Second Coming (and naturally, the Rapture) within their life time....even in this thread! How is this not a form of date framing?

I think this all stems from two or three things:

Interpreting Israel to be the fig tree
Applying the "last generation" to be the one that sees the budding of said fig tree (1948) instead of "all these things" (Matthew 24:4-31), which the context permits. And it must be "all these things", not some.
Interpreting Luke 21:28, "when these things begin to take place" to apply to anything other than verses 25-27 in Luke 21. Verses 12-24 speak of the siege of Jerusalem and persecution of believers...this was not in view when Jesus said "these things"

I also believe we are close, but I stop short of calling a date that everything must happen by. Close is a relative term, and we dont understand "close" like God understands "close".

Alright, I've said my peace....I dont need to keep babbling on :doh

God bless,
- JIL

I don't agree with Jack Kelley on the "generation" length. Chuck Missler said in one of his audios that the Harpazo (the rapture) and the signing of the covenant between the AC and Israel could have as many as 33 years between them and that the last remaining 7 years would fulfill the Tribulation. We can't put a date on God by saying a generation started in 1948. Israel becoming a nation had to happen anyway for God's plan to carry out. It is one of the leaves on the fig tree, but not the fig tree itself. Israel's rebirth is a sign. God is not a dummy. He knew that men would try to put dates on Him and say that Israel's rebirth would happen exactly 70 years after. No. God said, "No man knows the day nor hour, not even the angels in Heaven or the Son Himself, but God alone." God picked that wording "day nor hour" instead of "month or year" of His return because He is conveying a message that His timing is so secretive and no man will ever be able to put a date, ie: year, month, day or hour. So, for Jack Kelley to put 2018 on the table for the Lord's return is strictly a waste of time. If you study Revelation, then you would know that in Revelation when the Great Tribulation starts there is exactly 1260 days between the AC's breaking of the covenant with Israel and the Second Coming. So God gave the world the exact amount of days for the world to look for His coming, but that clock doesn't start until the covenant is broken by the AC. So, Jack Kelley is being irresponsible and ignoring this scripture. It's so fanciful to put dates on God when we truly have no idea when He's coming except that He gave us signs that would occur in the Trib and if we are seeing those signs now, that means that we are seeing a fig tree bud and we are in Rapture Season!

acceptedintheBeloved

July 18th, 2010, 01:14 PM

IMHO, I don't believe that the idea He was conveying was that "no one WILL EVER know", for just a few verses later He illustrates those during the time of the flood and how "[they] knew not till the flood came, and took them all away"... It shows how they SHOULD have known, IF they had heeded God's Word (via Noah) but didn't. In the same way, those in the trib SHOULD know, IF they will but heed His Word (those parts which pertain especially to that time period leading up to His Second Coming, the trib: Matthew 24-25, etc), but sadly many will not.

I think it is man's interpretation that inserts the idea of "no one can/will EVER know"... I think He meant what He said by "knoweth [present tense, at the time spoken]"... but that it does not mean that sometime in the future it would not be knowable (for it WILL be, esp. those in the trib... to whom the passage applies).
I don't believe He's stating that no one will (or can) ever know (and the context is all about His Second Coming), for those who will heed His word and continue watching (during the trib) SHOULD KNOW...

Just my 2 cents. :hat

Jesus's Girl

July 18th, 2010, 01:21 PM

IMHO, I don't believe that the idea He was conveying was that "no one will EVER know", for just a few verses later He illustrates those during the time of the flood and how "[they] knew not till the flood came, and took them all away"... It shows how they SHOULD have known, IF they had heeded God's Word (via Noah) but didn't. In the same way, those in the trib SHOULD know, IF they will but heed His Word (those parts which pertain especially to that time period, the trib: Matthew 24-25, etc), but sadly many will not.

I think it is man's interpretation that inserts the idea of "no one can EVER know"... I think He meant what He said by "knoweth [present tense, at the time spoken]"... but that it does not mean that sometime in the future it would not be knowable (for it WILL be, esp. in the trib... to whom the passage applies).
I don't believe He's stating that no one will (or can) ever know (and the context is all about His Second Coming), for those who will heed His word and continue watching (during the trib) SHOULD KNOW...

Just my 2 cents. :hat

That's not what I meant at all. I meant that no man can ever put a date on the Lord's return. He gave us signs to watch for so we can be ready but we won't ever know the year, month, day or hour. He gave us signs to watch for so we know what season we are in. Matthew 24 was written for Jews during the Trib. We know that cause of how Jesus talks to them: "...when you see the Abomination that causes Desolation standing in the holy place..." ect. You have to look for the audience Jesus is talking to. Matthew 25, IMO, is talking to us as Christians because He is referring to the Holy Spirit because of the virgins that have their "oil" in the lamps. We can know the season of the Lord's return but we can not put a date on His return.

acceptedintheBeloved

July 18th, 2010, 01:27 PM

That's not what I meant at all. I meant that no man can ever put a date on the Lord's return. He gave us signs to watch for so we can be ready but we won't ever know the year, month, day or hour. He gave us signs to watch for so we know what season we are in. Matthew 24 was written for Jews during the Trib. We know that cause of how Jesus talks to them: "...when you see the Abomination that causes Desolation standing in the holy place..." ect. You have to look for the audience Jesus is talking to. Matthew 25, IMO, is talking to us as Christians because He is referring to the Holy Spirit because of the virgins that have their "oil" in the lamps. We can know the season of the Lord's return but we can not put a date on His return.

I'm saying that, IMO (and many scholars agree), the signs given in Matthew 24 (which correspond to the same in Revelation) are for them, during the trib (not for the Church), agreed, and that Matthew 24-25 go together (about the same topic, basically: His Second Coming, not our rapture).

:nod "For the Jews require a sign[s]..." 1 Corinthians 1:22a [1 Corinthians 1:22NASB]... and it is to them that they are given. :hat

ETA: Matthew 25:13 (the conclusion of the 10 Virgins parable) says basically the same thing that is repeated a few times in Matthew 24 (Matt 24:42, 44, 50; Matt 24:36), and that is, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." Another reason why I believe that this passage in Matthew 25 also refers to His Second Coming, not our rapture.
(See also Luke 12:35-40... [similar passage] "when He will return from the wedding")

Jesus's Girl

July 18th, 2010, 01:31 PM

I'm saying that, IMO (and many scholars agree), the signs given in Matthew 24 (which correspond to the same in Revelation) are for them, during the trib (not for the Church), and that Matthew 24-25 go together (about the same topic, basically: His Second Coming, not our rapture).

"For the Jews require a sign[s]..." 1 Corinthians 1:22a [1 Corinthians 1:22NASB]... and it is to them that they are given. :hat

I think we are in agreement :hat :lol2
I was challenging Jack Kelley's view that Jesus's Second Coming will be in 2018. I think that is so wrong and this view is ignoring scripture. One thing I applaud is his excitement of the Lord's coming. :yeah

Chris

July 18th, 2010, 01:47 PM

What constitutes a generation has been a key question ever since our Lord Jesus spoke the words. And as seen in all of the posts, there are a number of different answers. I love Chuck Missler's teaching, but I have to say that I think he's missed it on this one.
My opinion is that the fig tree represents Israel (I know JIL, you and I disagree on this :wave). And when Israel begins to bloom (as she did in 1948,) then that generation of people who were born at that time would see all these things come to pass. Matthew is a Jewish gospel, written to the Jews, so they would have understood what Jesus meant by the fig tree.
I also think there's a possibility that the fig tree in Luke (and Matthew) could just mean as it says... fig tree and all of the other trees. So the generation that is alive to see the beginning of birth pangs, will be alive when all these things come to pass.
I think the simpler Jesus made it to understand, the more people want to pull scripture apart. And I think this passage of scripture is one of those times.

I agree with what you said. It's also noteworthy that the fig tree is the last tree to gets it's leaves. So when you see the fig tree blooming you know summer is here. Likewise, when we see Israel back in the land in 1948, then the generation that sees "all these things" will be the generation that see all things fulfilled.

http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/why-the-rebirth-of-israel-is-a-sign-of-the-end/

There are three possible views of the phrase “this generation”. Some believe it refers to the generation alive when Jesus spoke. Their contention is that the Olivet Discourse prophecies were all fulfilled by 70 AD. I can not find any way to make this view conform to a literal interpretation of Scripture. At best it’s only a partial fulfillment, which means it confirms the fact that there will be a complete fulfillment in the End Times. Others use a secondary meaning for the Greek word translated generation and say it refers to the Jewish race. To them the verse says the Jewish people will not disappear from the Earth until all the End Times prophecies are fulfilled. While linguistically possible this interpretation isn’t really a legitimate sign. It’s not the existence of the Jewish race that’s important, it’s the existence of the nation Israel. Without Israel, End Times prophecies simply can not be fulfilled. That leaves the third alternative, that Jesus was speaking of the generation alive at the End of the Age. But even this is not a pertinent sign unless by the phrase “all these things” Jesus was speaking of everything that followed the re-birth of the nation.

I will note here that this article link that I posted above does not see this instance of the use of the word fig tree to represent Israel, we do know that the Bible does use the symbol of the fig tree to represent Israel in other parts of the Bible. I have seen Grant Jeffrey say he believes this references the fig tree but others that say they don't. :idunno

acceptedintheBeloved

July 18th, 2010, 01:52 PM

I think we are in agreement :hat :lol2
I was challenging Jack Kelley's view that Jesus's Second Coming will be in 2018. I think that is so wrong and this view is ignoring scripture. One thing I applaud is his excitement of the Lord's coming. :yeah

:wave I think we do mostly agree :hug... but my point is to say that Jack Kelley's idea might conflict with RR's specific rules, but I don't see how they contradict Scripture...

(Let me just add... I'm not saying that his conclusion is accurate, necessarily, but if the passage [Matthew 24:36] applies to His Second Coming, not our rapture, as I believe it does... and if the passage is not stating what the popular opinion is saying it says [that no one can/will ever know]... then I see no reason we can't look at the whole of Scripture, the fulfillments of the 1948 and 1967 time-related prophecies [each 2520 biblical/prophetic years from their significant/related OT dates... and there are more of these!], and other pertinent passages [perhaps Isaiah 11:11, etc] and come to a fairly close estimation. Though this board forbids it [for good reason, and I will abide by it], I don't believe Scripture is saying that, here [or elsewhere, for that matter]... that is my point. :) )

And yes, eagerly awaiting our departure... along with you! :yeah

Chris

July 18th, 2010, 01:54 PM

Buzz,

Being that you adhere to Israel as the fig tree and that you believe "this generation" applies to the generation that saw Israel become a nation again, then that must mean that you put an end date to which "all these things" must happen. Do you agree with Jack in believing that the Second Coming must happen by 2018 based on a generation lasting 70/80 years?

If not, how long will this generation last? I'm wondering how many here slip past the forum rule:

I'm really not trying to be smart here, or trying to disrespect anyone, I just want to understand your position and possibly learn something. I've heard people say that we ARE 100%, POSITIVELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT the last generation, framing the Second Coming (and naturally, the Rapture) within their life time....even in this thread! How is this not a form of date framing?

I think this all stems from two or three things:

Interpreting Israel to be the fig tree
Applying the "last generation" to be the one that sees the budding of said fig tree (1948) instead of "all these things" (Matthew 24:4-31), which the context permits. And it must be "all these things", not some.
Interpreting Luke 21:28, "when these things begin to take place" to apply to anything other than verses 25-27 in Luke 21. Verses 12-24 speak of the siege of Jerusalem and persecution of believers...this was not in view when Jesus said "these things"

I also believe we are close, but I stop short of calling a date that everything must happen by. Close is a relative term, and we dont understand "close" like God understands "close".

Alright, I've said my peace....I dont need to keep babbling on :doh

God bless,
- JIL

This topic is the only one that you can't discuss seriously without getting into timeframes since the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 is essential to understanding the passage. We don't date set raptures, name the AC, etc. which is as that rule applies. But in this one instance, it is nearly impossible to discuss "this generation" from the verses being talked about to carry out a discussion on the topic. The conversation naturally leads to the dates.

We know that is we apply the Bible seriously we can see that God gave an exact date for when the Messiah was to come. He gave an exact date when Israel was to be reborn. It would not be surprising to me to see that he's given a round and about time for when things could be fulfilled relating to the end times.

This is a tough topic to discuss and one that borders on the rules here, but it is the only exception that we will allow. It is an unwritten exception. :hat

Chris

July 18th, 2010, 02:02 PM

I don't agree with Jack Kelley on the "generation" length. Chuck Missler said in one of his audios that the Harpazo (the rapture) and the signing of the covenant between the AC and Israel could have as many as 33 years between them and that the last remaining 7 years would fulfill the Tribulation. We can't put a date on God by saying a generation started in 1948. Israel becoming a nation had to happen anyway for God's plan to carry out. It is one of the leaves on the fig tree, but not the fig tree itself. Israel's rebirth is a sign. God is not a dummy. He knew that men would try to put dates on Him and say that Israel's rebirth would happen exactly 70 years after. No. God said, "No man knows the day nor hour, not even the angels in Heaven or the Son Himself, but God alone." God picked that wording "day nor hour" instead of "month or year" of His return because He is conveying a message that His timing is so secretive and no man will ever be able to put a date, ie: year, month, day or hour. So, for Jack Kelley to put 2018 on the table for the Lord's return is strictly a waste of time. If you study Revelation, then you would know that in Revelation when the Great Tribulation starts there is exactly 1260 days between the AC's breaking of the covenant with Israel and the Second Coming. So God gave the world the exact amount of days for the world to look for His coming, but that clock doesn't start until the covenant is broken by the AC. So, Jack Kelley is being irresponsible and ignoring this scripture. It's so fanciful to put dates on God when we truly have no idea when He's coming except that He gave us signs that would occur in the Trib and if we are seeing those signs now, that means that we are seeing a fig tree bud and we are in Rapture Season!

Chuck Missler carries no more weight than Jack Kelley. Some other popular teachers like Grant Jeffrey teach the same thing Jack does that we are the terminal generation.

It's also noteworthy that all first coming prophecies relating to Jesus were fulfilled in 70 years from his birth to the destruction of the Temple and City in 70AD. If you want to know how things are going to happen in the future, research the past. God doesn't change.