Will this Generation see the End of the Age? (merged)

[JesusIsLord]

This topic is the only one that you can't discuss seriously without getting into timeframes since the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 is essential to understanding the passage. We don't date set raptures, name the AC, etc. which is as that rule applies. But in this one instance, it is nearly impossible to discuss "this generation" from the verses being talked about to carry out a discussion on the topic. The conversation naturally leads to the dates.

We know that is we apply the Bible seriously we can see that God gave an exact date for when the Messiah was to come. He gave an exact date when Israel was to be reborn. It would not be surprising to me to see that he's given a round and about time for when things could be fulfilled relating to the end times.

This is a tough topic to discuss and one that borders on the rules here, but it is the only exception that we will allow. It is an unwritten exception. :hat

Very interesting. It's good to know, although I dont agree. In any case, I know it's okay to discuss now, so I wont be calling people out as "DATE FRAMERS!!" :lol2

On what I disagree, is that the generation applies to the rebirth of Israel, rather than "all these things", which in Matthew 24 pertain to the Tribulation's events (verses 4-31). Therefore, I see it as a given that Israel has already been reborn (Ezekiel 37) at the point in time that "all these things" begin to happen. The result is that the Generation the Lord was talking about is the generation living in the Tribulation, not the generation that saw the rebirth of Israel. And as we know, the Tribulation hasnt started yet, so we cant know how long the current "season" that we are in will last and the 70/80 years from 1948 do not apply.

[JesusIsLord]

IMHO, I don't believe that the idea He was conveying was that "no one WILL EVER know", for just a few verses later He illustrates those during the time of the flood and how "[they] knew not till the flood came, and took them all away"... It shows how they SHOULD have known, IF they had heeded God's Word (via Noah) but didn't. In the same way, those in the trib SHOULD know, IF they will but heed His Word (those parts which pertain especially to that time period leading up to His Second Coming, the trib: Matthew 24-25, etc), but sadly many will not.

I think it is man's interpretation that inserts the idea of "no one can/will EVER know"... I think He meant what He said by "knoweth [present tense, at the time spoken]"... but that it does not mean that sometime in the future it would not be knowable (for it WILL be, esp. those in the trib... to whom the passage applies).
I don't believe He's stating that no one will (or can) ever know (and the context is all about His Second Coming), for those who will heed His word and continue watching (during the trib) SHOULD KNOW...

Just my 2 cents. :hat


I guess this is another point at which we disagree.

Being that I believe Matthew 24's events pertain completely to the Tribulation and not beginning at Israel's rebirth, the "generation" that can know (within the 75 day window) when the Lord will return is the generation living during the Tribulation. I dont think anyone right now can know this, being that the future time-floating covenant has not yet been signed. Once you know the date of that covenant signing, you can begin counting.

It all hinges on how you interpret Matthew 24:32-35. I guess we just see it differently. :hug

[MsSophie]

Very interesting. It's good to know, although I dont agree. In any case, I know it's okay to discuss now, so I wont be calling people out as "DATE FRAMERS!!" :lol2

On what I disagree, is that the generation applies to the rebirth of Israel, rather than "all these things", which in Matthew 24 pertain to the Tribulation's events (verses 4-31). Therefore, I see it as a given that Israel has already been reborn (Ezekiel 37) at the point in time that "all these things" begin to happen. The result is that the Generation the Lord was talking about is the generation living in the Tribulation, not the generation that saw the rebirth of Israel. And as we know, the Tribulation hasnt started yet, so we cant know how long the current "season" that we are in will last and the 70/80 years from 1948 do not apply.

JIl, is it your opinion that the Tribulation could be hundreds of years away?

[JesusIsLord]

Ever since JIL and I had our discussion on this subject, I have kind of been looking at other views. I still am leaning towards Israel being the fig tree. But, I also now acknowledge the fact that the fig tree could mean just that... the fig tree (and all the trees in Luke 21:29) We know summer is on the way when we see all trees start to bloom, not just the fig tree. Jesus gave a list of the beginning of sorrows (Matthew 24:6-8). Matthew 24:34's till all these things be fulfilled may just mean the beginning of sorrows from Matthew 24:6-8. That generation that sees the beginning of sorrows, will not pass away until all be fulfilled.
I'm of the opinion that Matthew 24 is primarily for giving details of the tribulation, but not exclusively. Matthew 24 is a gospel. Only the Jews would worry about having to flee on the sabbath. Which is part of the reason I still lean towards the fig tree being Israel. Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in 70 AD. That prophecy has been fulfilled already.

I remember that one....it was a doozy! :lol2

It's interesting to note that Arnold Fructembaum believes Israel to be symbolized as a "vine" rather than the fig tree. I cannot comment as I have not done enough study, but he came from a Jewish background and would know much more than I on the subject.

I still believe it makes more sense contextually to see the fig tree as an illustration rather than a symbol for Israel. The fig tree was something that the Jews were well accustomed to, not only in a scriptural sense but in a "farming" sense. Whatever the order was on types of trees that were last to bloom right before summer came, it is clear that Jesus indicates the fig tree as such a tree, and that the Jews knew this. Given the context, I think the "farming" sense was what Jesus was talking about instead of the "scriptural precedents" as the fig tree representing Israel.

It's good that you are at least open to it, as I am towards the fig tree representing Israel. I cannot outright deny it, but in my view, it is not a preferred reading.

:hug

[JesusIsLord]

JIl, is it your opinion that the Tribulation could be hundreds of years away?

Officially, "I dont know". :hat

My "feeling" is that we are much, much closer, given the happenings of today. But I cannot let my feelings get in the way: I cannot outright deny it could be 100 years away, even though it seems it will happen before that. We all know there are dips and lulls in prophetic events....right now we are in warpspeed, but things ***could*** slow down. So there it is: "I dont know" :heh. Until the Tribulation hits, I dont believe anyone can know.

Paul and the Apostles lived with the expectation that the Lord could return (rapture) at any moment. We should too, but just as in their case, we ***may*** not see it even though we expect it daily. I know that puts a damper on the excitement, but that's the way I read scripture.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I guess this is another point at which we disagree.

Being that I believe Matthew 24's events pertain completely to the Tribulation and not beginning at Israel's rebirth, the "generation" that can know (within the 75 day window) when the Lord will return is the generation living during the Tribulation. I dont think anyone right now can know this, being that the future time-floating covenant has not yet been signed. Once you know the date of that covenant signing, you can begin counting.

It all hinges on how you interpret Matthew 24:32-35. I guess we just see it differently. :hug

:wave It's very difficult for me to explain... but I agree with you that all of Matthew 24 (and 25) is about the tribulation and His Second Coming (including the well-known verse that many attempt to apply to the Church, but doesn't properly apply, which is Matthew 24:36... you tend to want to apply it to us, too. :lol2 )

I am saying that there are other passages (and all of Scripture put together) that gives us a fairly good estimation (and I'd say, as accurately as the 1948 and 1967 time-related prophecies), but that many people pull out this verse (Matthew 24:36), wrongly interpret and apply it, and flatly say, "we are not to know." As if the Lord desires us to be ignorant. I don't believe that. :hat

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Officially, "I dont know". :hat

My "feeling" is that we are much, much closer, given the happenings of today. But I cannot let my feelings get in the way: I cannot outright deny it could be 100 years away, even though it seems it will happen before that. We all know there are dips and lulls in prophetic events....right now we are in warpspeed, but things ***could*** slow down. So there it is:

"I dont know" :heh

My question to you would be this: "Dips and lulls in WHAT prophetic events?!" According to your view (and mine, pretty much, re: Matthew 24 "signs") "all these [prophetic signs]" are for Israel in the trib... so there shouldn't be anything prophetic happening now (well, other than Israel having become a nation in '48... Jerusalem in '67... :heh )

What dips and lulls are we looking at? Just wondering... :hat

[JesusIsLord]

:wave It's very difficult for me to explain... but I agree with you that all of Matthew 24 (and 25) is about the tribulation and His Second Coming (including the well-known verse that many attempt to apply to the Church, but doesn't properly apply, which is Matthew 24:36... you tend to want to apply it to us, too. :lol2 )

I am saying that there are other passages (and all of Scripture put together) that gives us a fairly good estimation (and I'd say, as accurately as the 1948 and 1967 time-related prophecies), but that many people pull out this verse (Matthew 24:36), wrongly interpret and apply it, and flatly say, "we are not to know." As if the Lord desires us to be ignorant. I don't believe that. :hat

Well, I guess we just disagree then :hat. No harm, no foul.

But to clarify one thing on Matthew 24:36, I dont apply that to the Church/Rapture whatsoever. In the past, I have (inadequately) said that this verse applies strictly to the Second Coming, BUT....because we dont know the date of the signing of the covenant, which means we dont know the 75 day window for the Lord's Return, we also dont know the general timing/date framing of the Rapture either.

In other words, if today we know what date the Covenant would be signed, then we could say, "The Rapture WILL happen on or before [enter date of covenant here]". But we dont know this, so we dont have a time frame for the Rapture either.

Does that make any sense? I think that's the best I can do :lol2

[JesusIsLord]

My question to you would be this: "Dips and lulls in WHAT prophetic events?!" According to your view (and mine, re: Matthew 24 "signs") "all these [prophetic signs]" are for Israel in the trib... so there shouldn't be anything prophetic happening now (well, other than Israel having become a nation in '48... Jerusalem in '67... :heh )

What dips and lulls are we looking at? Just wondering... :hat

I'm gonna make a place saver for this.....I am going to lunch with my family right now, so I'll answer it a bit later!

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Oops... double post.