Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Emily Ruth]

I am glad we are in agreement.

I believe it is fruitful to discuss both aspects of this, so don't take it that I am presuming upon your actions.



Funny thing about this though...I see more then a few who push others into self-inspection, all the while not so subtly hinting that this or that person is not saved. We are never told to do that either, but I see it happen just the same.

No man can give another assurance of salvation, it is impossible by the very nature of what we are discussing. As you say, only He can confirm. People can, however, cause others to doubt and to stumble.

It is a fine line, but a perfect line that we can walk, whereby we cause truthful reflection without sowing doubt. I believe it can be achieved. There seems to be as many relying on their works as there are those relying on citation of a few words, imo. Combating both in love is a goal of mine.

And it is a noble goal indeed.

The concern over causing people to stumble because of pointing them to scripture - such as 1 John to do an inspection of their hearts is something that is far more scriptural since we are our brother's keeper and I have friends who help me to self inspect if they see me wandering.

But it is a far more frightening thought to leave a person in their unfruitful lives and not say anything for fear of causing them to doubt when they may indeed be deceived into thinking they are saved and will not find out otherwise until they hear those words of Matthew 7.

Isn't it more loving to point them to scriptures to get the assurance from the Holy Spirit and not man's assurance?

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

[HeIsEnough]

The concern over causing people to stumble because of pointing them to scripture

That is not the concern. The concern is someone else's perception and judgment of a person by their works.

If I point someone to scripture, I can also point them to scripture which tells them to stop relying on doing works for their assurance.


But it is a far more frightening thought to leave a person in their unfruitful lives and not say anything for fear of causing them to doubt when they may indeed be deceived into thinking they are saved and will not find out otherwise until they hear those words of Matthew 7.

Isn't it more loving to point them to scriptures to get the assurance from the Holy Spirit and not man's assurance?


When someone says they see no works in someones life, and point them to scripture and admonish them to have works, they are not actually doing them any good, but hindering them to rely on works. This is to cause a man to stumble. This is one reason why it is said that Israel stumbled over the 'stumbling stone'.

The people in question, those the Lord will say 'I never knew you', had plenty of works. Obviously, they didn't have assurance because they appealed to Christ's knowledge of their works. It didn't help them. The only thing a man can claim is to appeal to believing on Him, and to say "I am an unworthy servant, have mercy on me oh God. Whatever works I did, were all for you, but they won't earn me anything in your sight."

Assurance is rightly known, when the scriptures are rightly understood. Its every bit as important to warn not to rely on our own works, as it is to not rely on an incantation of a prayer. The leaders of Israel in Christs day are lesson on thinking works can save a man. Fewer examples are given in the scriptures of a false assurance because of a prayer. Plenty are given because of false assurance over our own works.

I am truly not attempting to play one side up over another, both are equally corrupt. The solution is to dispel both with truth, not leave lingering confusion over what gives assurance (having lots of good works is a false assurance, as the scriptural example you cited points out)

[LaMontre]

Speaking of 1 John and eternal security for the believer.....

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[A BELIEVER]

Eph1:13 the gospel of our salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

[Emily Ruth]

That is not the concern. The concern is someone else's perception and judgment of a person by their works.

If I point someone to scripture, I can also point them to scripture which tells them to stop relying on doing works for their assurance.
Can we please divide works from assurance of salvation and fruit of salvation? Somehow I get the feeling that even though Jesus said you will know them by their fruit and
John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

1 John 2:9
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.

You are saying we think these are works? To show love to one another?


When someone says they see no works in someones life, and point them to scripture and admonish them to have works, they are not actually doing them any good, but hindering them to rely on works. This is to cause a man to stumble. This is one reason why it is said that Israel stumbled over the 'stumbling stone'.

The people in question, those the Lord will say 'I never knew you', had plenty of works. Obviously, they didn't have assurance because they appealed to Christ's knowledge of their works. It didn't help them. The only thing a man can claim is to appeal to believing on Him, and to say "I am an unworthy servant, have mercy on me oh God. Whatever works I did, were all for you, but they won't earn me anything in your sight."

You use the word 'Obviously" here as though everyone is seeing what you are seeing. I do not see that. What I see when I read those scriptures are people who sincerley thought they were saved and even did things to show their love for others and for Him and yet they had been deceived because they did not seek the assurance of the only one who mattered - and that was the assurance of the Holy Spirit as I quoted in the scipture above. They relied on people to tell them they were saved by the scriptures quoted to them. But only the Holy Spirit can give a person assurance in their spirit and the evidence of a person who is truly regenerated and a new creation is in their fruit and how they love others and how they do the will of the Father.

I can present you with many scriptures showing that our salvation is not by works so no man can boast but faith without works is dead. I humbly submit that if something is dead it is not born again.

[Emily Ruth]

Speaking of 1 John and eternal security for the believer.....

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


This is a wonderful scripture. I did a great deal of prayer and study of this scripture and it became clear that sin is rebellion against God. We are reconciled to God so we are no longer in rebellion. We are no longer under the law or judgment. The part of us who sinned against God died when we died to self and were born a new creation - one reconciled to God and therefor no longer in rebellion.

I once heard a preacher say that true peace is not the end of war among men it is the end of war with God. When each of us is reconcilled through the blood of Jesus Christ our war with Him is ended and there is no longer rebellion (sin) in us.

Jesus said
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

[LaMontre]

This is a wonderful scripture. I did a great deal of prayer and study of this scripture and it became clear that sin is rebellion against God. We are reconciled to God so we are no longer in rebellion. We are no longer under the law or judgment. The part of us who sinned against God died when we died to self and were born a new creation - one reconciled to God and therefor no longer in rebellion.

I once heard a preacher say that true peace is not the end of war among men it is the end of war with God. When each of us is reconcilled through the blood of Jesus Christ our war with Him is ended and there is no longer rebellion (sin) in us.

Jesus said
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.


Well, these are evasions of the fact of what that scripture truly does say.

We cannot sin, because the Holy Spirit remains in us eternally (remaineth), no matter what. It is the consequence of sin, (i.e. the removal of the presence of God), that has been overcome. That is the victory. The blood of Christ is eternal, so therefore is our salvation.

2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

[Emily Ruth]

Well, these are evasions of the fact of what that scripture truly does say.

We cannot sin, because the Holy Spirit remains in us eternally (remaineth), no matter what. It is the consequence of sin, (i.e. the removal of the presence of God), that has been overcome. That is the victory. The blood of Christ is eternal, so therefore is our salvation.

2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


I think you make good points too. But we also cannot sin because we are reconciled to Him. I am sorry I am not saying it in a way for you to understand what I am trying to say but it is the same conclusion.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

[Hootmon]

Speaking of 1 John and eternal security for the believer.....

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.You would think that would be a 'slam dunk'...

[HeIsEnough]

You are saying we think these are works? To show love to one another?

Hardly. I have no idea where you discerned that from my posts.



What I see when I read those scriptures are people who sincerley thought they were saved and even did things to show their love for others and for Him and yet they had been deceived because they did not seek the assurance of the only one who mattered

These scriptures do not indicate what you are saying.

"prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'"

Prophesy, drive out demons and perform miracles, do not equate to fruit, nor do they necessarily stem from fruit, imo. You are reading into this scripture they even displayed fruit at all.



- and that was the assurance of the Holy Spirit as I quoted in the scipture above.

Again, you are reading into it they had some kind of assurance. The exchange between Jesus and these people indicate they didn't actually know what salvation was at all.

The question is, do we know what to say to Christ when we meet Him?

If you answer this question, you will understand where the people Christ spoke of have faltered.