Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[goinghome]

oops, got my brothers mixed up. Thanks for the correction. but the point stands.

[For-Knowledge]

Brethren hearken unto me:

Romans 8:13

13.For if ye(spirit filled christians) live after the flesh,(living in a continual backslidden state, enjoying the passing pleasures of sin) ye shall die(the second death, eternally lost forever) but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.(ah yes, life eternal with Jesus our Lord :nod )

Do I need to go any further? Can any man dispute what Paul just said? It is obvious Paul is not referring to a "physical death". For we all shall die if Christ tarries. (In fact, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. death has lost it's sting for the believer, death is not to be feared) No, rather, Paul is making a profound statement here with deep unsettling consequences, namely, if a spirit filled believer turns again into "egypt", and physically dies in that state, they are lost forever. Paul knows this to be true.

Romans 11: 20-22

20.Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: (Fear? Why should spirit filled christians fear? :scratch )
21.For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.(Has Paul lost his mind? God not sparing a spirit filled christian?)
22.Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness(grace): otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.(Is Paul smoking crack? Spirit filled christians cut off from the root/vine? if they depart from the goodness/grace of God?) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

There is no need for me to post any other scriptures. Let's deal with these first. It should be interesting to see how some folks will just "explain this all away"

Otherwise you shall also be cut off? Are you kidding me? Is Paul joking? Is Paul on drugs? Spirit filled Christians being cut-off from the root/vine..aka Jesus the Lord? Is this really possible? How on earth will the osas folks explain this away? I'm sure they'll think of something. But wouldn't it be easier to just accept what scripture has to say about this topic? I'm not sure how much clearer the bible can be. Spirit filled christians will be cut-off from God if they depart from the goodness/grace of God: what's so confusing about that? :idunno

Hebrews 3:12-14

12.Take heed, brethren,(spirit filled christians) lest there be in any of you an [B]evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13.But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.(can a backslidden life style actually hardened your heart?)
14.For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Jesus so eloquently warned us long ago, he who endures to the end, the same shall be save/partake with Christ in his kingdom)

An evil heart of unbelief? Departing from the living God? Wow, those are strong words by Paul, don't you think? To think that it is actually possible for a spirit filled christian to have an evil heart of unbelief is unfathomable. But yet, Paul teaches us that it is quite possible. Moreover, it is even more astonishing to think that spirit filled christians can actually depart from the living God. Huh? Yup! Paul tells us that it is indeed possible :nod

Hebrews 4:1

1.Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Fear? Why should spirit filled christians fear? Lest any of you should come short of the promise? That's impossible! Why would Paul say such a silly thing? Because Paul knows what happens to people who draw back from the living God.

11.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Is it really possible for a spirit filled Christian to fall after the same example of unbelief, like Israel did ?Yup :nod )

The same example of unbelief? You mean God is using Israel as an example for all those who would come afterward? Is Paul comparing Israel to that of the Church? Yup, he sure is :nod God cannot change, if He spared not the angels, if he spared not Israel because of unbelief, he will have no choice but to cut spirit filled christians off as well. God cannot change.

Hebrew 10:36-39

36.For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37.For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38.Now the just(spirit filled christians) shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39.But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Perdition? Is that the way God views those christians who depart/draw back from him? His soul has no pleasure in them? :doh There are only 2 people in the bible who carry that name, Judas and the man of sin..sons of perdition. I find it quite scary that God would label anyone who departs from him as one being of "perdition". Yikes!!!

It is quite clear Jesus was not joking when he said:

"he who endures to the end the same shall be saved" For if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him, for I will cut him off and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.(enduring to the end) 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart,(evil heart of unbelief) ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ [g] 49and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,(a sad backslidden state)( 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (lake of fire forever and ever)

I have many more scriptures proving that those who depart from the living God will burn forever. God cannot change, not even for the Church. If there's one thing that ticks God off, it's an evil heart of unbelief.

Now before the osas folks begin to pound me, let me just state, I already know about the promises that God has promised in Christ Jesus. I'm very much aware of the intergral role the Holy Spirit plays in believers. I am also very much aware about whom God forknew..whom he called...etc etc.
I am also very much aware about the vision God gave us of heaven..."a number that no man can number" In short, many people are going to heaven,(if you factor in God's time, we are already there..lol)

God in his forknowledge already knows who will endure to the end, thus he is able to guarantee their inheritance by the Holy Spirit whom he has given them. God chose 12, and yet one of them was a devil. There are all sorts of scriptures that guarantee our inheritance in Christ. And those scriptures are true!

However, if you depart from the grace of God(trampling the son of God underfoot) and backslide and continue to live and revel in sin, you will be cut off. There is no getting around it..sorry :ohno

For if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

We spirit filled believers are so accustomed to the "goodness' of God, that it is almost unfathomable to think that God has a "severe" side(under the new covenant) as well.

Behold the goodness AND severity of God. Folks, that is the key! The goodness AND severity of God!

I implore my brothers and sisters: you do not want to find out how "severe" God can be if you depart from his goodness.

Trust me, you don't wan't to find out :ohno

[TheWorkman]

I have boat loads of scripture supporting exactly what I said. And to be quite honest, my mind is already made up, my position will not change concerning this topic.





Even with sufficient evidence?

[jelaine]

I am asking because I am not able to find defining scripture that goes either way on this. Most of the verses I find have the word "if" in them. On my wed night bible study we have been going through John 15:6, and digging into it's meaning.

John 15:6 (New King James Version)

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

I would like to hear from both sides of the discussion we can or cannot loose our salvation. I will try to play devils advocate from both points of view. I am hoping that someone has the answers I am looking for. I am honestly seeking the truth, so please don't think I am trying to put a stumbling block in front of anyone, just feeling convicted to find out about this.


Hope this makes sense to someone other than me


Excellent thoughts mr twisty ... Jesus also said "Whoever comes to me I will by no means cast out" I believe in the true eternal security of the REAL believer, but not this 'invite Jesus into your heart crap' that we hear all over the place, because unfornately telling someone they are saved, does God and people a huge diservice. Jesus said 'narrow is the way and few there be that find it' right and He also said 'many will say to me in that day Lord Lord' so many will claim Him as Lord .... But also the Bible says "By Grace ye are saved through faith and this not of yourself (nor of works) but it is the gift of God"
So salvation is a gift from God but not one to tread lightly... there are too many references that leave one in fear, and rightly so. I say fear God keep His commands for this is man's all Ecc 13:something or other.

[LaMontre]

Brethren hearken unto me:

Romans 8:13

13.For if ye(spirit filled christians) live after the flesh,(living in a continual backslidden state, enjoying the passing pleasures of sin) ye shall die(the second death, eternally lost forever) but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.(ah yes, life eternal with Jesus our Lord :nod )

Do I need to go any further? Can any man dispute what Paul just said? It is obvious Paul is not referring to a "physical death". For we all shall die if Christ tarries. (In fact, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. death has lost it's sting for the believer, death is not to be feared) No, rather, Paul is making a profound statement here with deep unsettling consequences, namely, if a spirit filled believer turns again into "egypt", and physically dies in that state, they are lost forever. Paul knows this to be true.

Romans 11: 20-22

20.Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: (Fear? Why should spirit filled christians fear? :scratch )
21.For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.(Has Paul lost his mind? God not sparing a spirit filled christian?)
22.Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness(grace): otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.(Is Paul smoking crack? Spirit filled christians cut off from the root/vine? if they depart from the goodness/grace of God?) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

There is no need for me to post any other scriptures. Let's deal with these first. It should be interesting to see how some folks will just "explain this all away"

Otherwise you shall also be cut off? Are you kidding me? Is Paul joking? Is Paul on drugs? Spirit filled Christians being cut-off from the root/vine..aka Jesus the Lord? Is this really possible? How on earth will the osas folks explain this away? I'm sure they'll think of something. But wouldn't it be easier to just accept what scripture has to say about this topic? I'm not sure how much clearer the bible can be. Spirit filled christians will be cut-off from God if they depart from the goodness/grace of God: what's so confusing about that? :idunno

Hebrews 3:12-14

12.Take heed, brethren,(spirit filled christians) lest there be in any of you an [B]evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13.But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.(can a backslidden life style actually hardened your heart?)
14.For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Jesus so eloquently warned us long ago, he who endures to the end, the same shall be save/partake with Christ in his kingdom)

An evil heart of unbelief? Departing from the living God? Wow, those are strong words by Paul, don't you think? To think that it is actually possible for a spirit filled christian to have an evil heart of unbelief is unfathomable. But yet, Paul teaches us that it is quite possible. Moreover, it is even more astonishing to think that spirit filled christians can actually depart from the living God. Huh? Yup! Paul tells us that it is indeed possible :nod

Hebrews 4:1

1.Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Fear? Why should spirit filled christians fear? Lest any of you should come short of the promise? That's impossible! Why would Paul say such a silly thing? Because Paul knows what happens to people who draw back from the living God.

11.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Is it really possible for a spirit filled Christian to fall after the same example of unbelief, like Israel did ?Yup :nod )

The same example of unbelief? You mean God is using Israel as an example for all those who would come afterward? Is Paul comparing Israel to that of the Church? Yup, he sure is :nod God cannot change, if He spared not the angels, if he spared not Israel because of unbelief, he will have no choice but to cut spirit filled christians off as well. God cannot change.

Hebrew 10:36-39

36.For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37.For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38.Now the just(spirit filled christians) shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39.But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Perdition? Is that the way God views those christians who depart/draw back from him? His soul has no pleasure in them? :doh There are only 2 people in the bible who carry that name, Judas and the man of sin..sons of perdition. I find it quite scary that God would label anyone who departs from him as one being of "perdition". Yikes!!!

It is quite clear Jesus was not joking when he said:

"he who endures to the end the same shall be saved" For if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him, for I will cut him off and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.(enduring to the end) 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart,(evil heart of unbelief) ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ [g] 49and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,(a sad backslidden state)( 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (lake of fire forever and ever)

I have many more scriptures proving that those who depart from the living God will burn forever. God cannot change, not even for the Church. If there's one thing that ticks God off, it's an evil heart of unbelief.

Now before the osas folks begin to pound me, let me just state, I already know about the promises that God has promised in Christ Jesus. I'm very much aware of the intergral role the Holy Spirit plays in believers. I am also very much aware about whom God forknew..whom he called...etc etc.
I am also very much aware about the vision God gave us of heaven..."a number that no man can number" In short, many people are going to heaven,(if you factor in God's time, we are already there..lol)

God in his forknowledge already knows who will endure to the end, thus he is able to guarantee their inheritance by the Holy Spirit whom he has given them. God chose 12, and yet one of them was a devil. There are all sorts of scriptures that guarantee our inheritance in Christ. And those scriptures are true!

However, if you depart from the grace of God(trampling the son of God underfoot) and backslide and continue to live and revel in sin, you will be cut off. There is no getting around it..sorry :ohno

For if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

We spirit filled believers are so accustomed to the "goodness' of God, that it is almost unfathomable to think that God has a "severe" side(under the new covenant) as well.

Behold the goodness AND severity of God. Folks, that is the key! The goodness AND severity of God!

I implore my brothers and sisters: you do not want to find out how "severe" God can be if you depart from his goodness.

Trust me, you don't wan't to find out :ohno

I think the entire matter can be summed up here:
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

I would never suppose that these were "saved".

You can believe in vain:
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

After all, how can any "believer" in a back slidden state <--a term that needs definition), be considered "spirit filled"??

:idunno

So the sum of the matter is still once saved always saved....for he who "believeth" <--a continual verb) "to the saving of the soul".

[Everlasting]

The Bible is a prophetic view of man's results, and the world's future. If man were not falliable, we would not have the problem of global warming. Science standing alone is the measurement of the unknown. But Faith and Science together can accomplish much.

With all of the current debates about global warming, and it's implications to world. Some Christian's are referring to the phenomenon as one of the last plaques. Because the Bible is an intricate detailed work of God's creation, I am compelled to believe the following:

Since a moment in time is like a thousand years to the Lord. No one can say to a certainty how God's plan has evolved. Many of the persecutions that Christian's would suffer under the Gospel, are sufferings Christian's have supplicated and mourned over.

Hbr 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Is God's love in intercession? Allowing mankind to remember, consider and glorify His word.

Amen and Amen :yay

Everlasting
Bible Inspired Author
Moon Over Key Biscayne
ISBN: 1-4241-6884-8
booksandmore.4t.com

[blitzkreig]

If God didn't want the world to warm ... it wouldn't warm. I wouldn't worry about it.


.

[justasinnersavedbygrace]

I'd like to share my thoughts on this with you Jayna,if I may.

Several years ago my Mom,who lived 1500 miles from me was dying in another state from her second bout of cancer. Raised in the RCC, my family left it when after having 5 children my Mom went on birth control pills, because the church told her she couldn't take them. Ten or so years later,she had an affair and my parents divorced and my Mom remarried. She believed herself to be a "sinner", who took birth control pills, eventually had an affair,divorced and remarried, and so she never went to church. The church she was raised in, in her mind had 'disowned' her. I would talk to her now and then about Jesus but never forced the issue. The second time she emailed and told me she had cancer, I wrote her back and told her that the way the world was turning and the amount of crime in it, dancing around the throne of God may not be such a bad place to be after all. I layed out Scripture verses for her regarding how God wants us all to be saved, etc. Her response was to write me back and tell me she didn't want to hear anything more about God or Jesus. I was heartbroken. How was I to witness to her now that she had shut me out? I cried and prayed about it and placed it in Gods hands.

A few weeks later I went to visit her, and while there I witnessed to my youngest brother (who had mild learning disabilites and bipolar disorder), who lived with our Dad. One day I took him with me to see a drama program that had an altar call at the end, and he gave his life to Jesus. Hallelujah! I found a small Bible reading,believing church nearby for him to start going to and came back home.

They gave my Mom 3 months to live and I took a 3 month leave of absence from my job as a caregiver and went to be with my family. My brother was attending the little church and after I got there we spoke with the pastor requesting prayer for my Mom, and my brother, with tears in his eyes said he didn't want to get to heaven someday and his Mommy not be there. The church prayed for my Mom regularly, gave us lots of support, visited with her and sent her cards. My brother and I attended services there,prayer groups and worship groups and some classes. He didn't read very well so often times I would read out loud to him and we'd discuss what I'd read, sometimes at my Moms when she was awake and listening. My brother started witnessing to our Mom and she saw a change in him-how he seemed happier and more loving than he'd been. She warmed up more to me talking about Jesus, and one afternoon after we'd been talking, she gave her life to Jesus! (six weeks before she died) Hallelujah!

I came back home and my brother continued to walk to the local church or catch a ride when he could (he didn't drive), although some of the small group things he didn't have a ride for. He went to prayer meetings and he and another guy voluntarily cleaned the church once a week.

Six months after our Mom passed away I was on vacation and got a phone call that my Dad had found my brother dead on the floor of his bedroom-of a heroin overdose. I was devastated. I had no idea he was using heroin or for how long he'd been using it. I cried and I prayed and I cried and I prayed. I was angry and hurt that God had allowed this to happen. I couldn't sleep; I was miserable. How could this have happened? What now was to become of my brother? For several weeks I prayed with no relief. I was tormented. Finally one night in prayer I felt the Holy Spirit speak to me-that Christ died for ALL of our sins-EVERY ONE of them--else He died in vain. And I have had peace about his passing ever since.

I beleive we are to try to confess our sins and repent of them, but that is not always possible. I know sometimes I sin and don't realize it until later that I did. If one is to die without confessing that sin, does our loving Father
condemn us to hell because of it? If I got angry with my daughter on the way back from the store and died in an accident on the way home, would God not allow me to go to heaven because of my unconfessed and unrepented sin? The Word does tell us that God so LOVED the world...and that he wishes that NONE should perish... As a parent myself, I know that although sometimes we get upset when our children screw up, I have yet to have them ever do anything for which I could not forgive them and continue to love them. I think that is the way Father looks at us. His word does say we are His adopted sons and daughters, and I believe that He truly loves us.

That is my hope and my belief. I believe that just as my brother is going to get to heaven someday and see his Mommy there, you too will get to heaven some day and see your son there. And I pray that I am right-that our Father truly is a very loving God, and that He gives you comfort and peace regarding your son. In Jesus' name. Amen.




So I guess that I can safely assume my son who died 3 years ago at 28 has been in hell all this time. By some of the posts here thats what I am getting. This is a very bitter pill to swallow. The way I get through this awful tragedy is by God's promises alone. My son went to church (but not every Sunday), he was saved at 13 and I think he meant it at the time. My son believed that Jesus was the Son of God and died for his sins. The last movie he saw was "Passion of the Christ" (easter Sunday, 2 wks before he passed). He loved it and said it was an 'eye opener'. His bil died 3 months before him and he was worried to death that he wasn't saved. My son didn't read much, so of course that includes the bible.
However my son was still a sinner. In fact he got on a motorcycle with a friend of his while both had been drinking and his friend lost control and that was that. I always assumed that the friend lived because he wasn't saved and God was giving him more time; and my son died because Christ either wanted him home then or was saving him from living a life as a vegetable. I had one day hoped to ask Jesus why my son left me early. But if the only people who are saved are the ones who doesn't sin anymore then I guess this isn't a possibility. I believe in OSAS, but if you truly have to turn from all sin in order to enter heaven then I guess like some of you said 'they were just posers'. If the holy spirit couldn't have been living in my son because he wasn't doing perfectly Godly things and still had sin in him then maybe God let him go. I sure hope not. My family believes my son was saved. But he didn't do everything perfect nor did he ever live without sin. This hurts.
:cry

[goinghome]

Brethren hearken unto me:

Romans 8:13

13.For if ye(spirit filled christians) live after the flesh,(living in a continual backslidden state, enjoying the passing pleasures of sin) ye shall die(the second death, eternally lost forever) but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.(ah yes, life eternal with Jesus our Lord :nod ) ............

I implore my brothers and sisters: you do not want to find out how "severe" God can be if you depart from his goodness.

Trust me, you don't wan't to find out :ohno



I intend to look at all of this info., and eventually respond, but I'm kind of bored with this thread so it will be a few days. You've already said you won't change your mind no matter what, so I figure you're not holding your breath for responses, but thanks for the hard work and I intend to study further if only to edify my own knowledge. I too am convinced OSAS, and there are countless refutations all over the internet, in books and church websites, etc. to many of the things you've quoted here that have satisfied my knowledge in the past. But I will never say that I won't change my mind. Whatever God wants to peel away from me is just fine with me no matter how right I think I am.

[For-Knowledge]

I
But I will never say that I won't change my mind. Whatever God wants to peel away from me is just fine with me no matter how right I think I am.


That is a wise statement :thumbup And in-fact, I recant what I said.
For if God wants to open my eyes concerning a topic, who am I that I should withstand God :ohno .

Thank you for pointing that out for me.