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View Full Version : Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?



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felixthecat
April 5th, 2008, 01:57 PM
Any sin separates us all from God unless we sincerely repent and accept Him as our Lord and Savior.

So sin separates us from God.

In no way shape of form does the BIBLE state that “all sin is equal”. It simply states that sin separates us from God – all of us!

In fact, the BIBLE states that different sins require different punishments on this earth and by implication states that “not all sin is equal”. If “all sin is equal” than all punishments would be the same if “all sin is equal”.

All sin is NOT equal. If a person steals a car and another person murders their spouse, in a court of law, we don't offer each the same punishment for their crime. It wouldn't make sense – the crime/sin is different and requires different punishments because the sin/crime si not equal. God is very logical too!

Taking a life is worse than stealing a car and this is reflected in different punishment. In our courts we distinguish between crimes and punishment varies by the crime. It is the crime/sin that separates a person from being one who obeys laws (or God). To sin is a crime. To sin is what separates us ALL from God and God clearly delineates different punishments for different sins. Again, it is a given that ALL SIN SEPARATES us from God. “Sin is not sin” in God’s eyes – He too distinguishes one sin through another by punishment and without genuine repentance will ultimately separate you from God. Stealing a car without belief and not repenting will still separate you from God.

The converse is true as well – stealing a car, repenting and belief will restore you to God. So it is sin that separates but sins are not equal in punishment from God or for our secular courts. IMO it is humanistic teachings that want to equalize sin …perhaps for the purpose of not thinking about what the proper consequence should be to deter this kind of sin/crime. It is irresponsible to not have punishment that fits the crime to help determine further crime/sin – via proper punishment.

Take a look in the Bible and how God punishes sin/crime.

I will go right to God's Word on HIS punishments:

Adultery: Deuteronomy 22:22

[22] If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

Bestiality : Exodus 22:19

[19] Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:15

“And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast”. (Both beast and human put to death)

Cross dressing:

Deuteronomy 22:5

[5] The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.


Man who rapes a virgin:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

"If a man finds a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days

Let’s take another situation

premeditated murder and

accidental manslaughter.

The death penalty was posed for one who killed with premeditation, but not for accidental manslaughter

Exodus 21:12-13

[12] He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

[13] And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

[14] But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

[15] And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Human trafficking?

[16] And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

[17] And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Death of a pregnant woman :

[22] If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Not ALL SIN IS EQUAL! SIN SEPARATES us from God! The punishment from God varies with the crime of the sin.

]Let’s look at stealing [/U]– another “sin”:

Exod.22:1

[1] If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.

(I dare say the the sin of stealing has a different consequence than the sin of planned murder and both are sins. Sin separates us from God and God issued different consequences for different sins so all sin is NOT equal.

[2] If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.

[3] If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

[4] If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double.

[5] If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.

[6] If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.

[7] If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double.

[8] If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.

[9] For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

So just by looking at a couple of sins, we see that sin SEPARATES us from God but God doesn’t see “all sin as equal”. If God saw “all sin as equal”, than the punishments would be “equal” as well. The punishments are not all equal. For the sin of murder, premeditation and accidental manslaughter or self defense is examined. In the situation of stealing – death isn’t the punishment. Restitution is the punishment to right the situation - depending on what happened.

Some will say, “That’s Old Testament stuff”. No, it’s still pertinent. The Old Testament isn’t to be disgarded but treasured. It gives us more direct insight to God on how He see the world of sin through more specifics even if it is through a theocracy – it is how HE sees sin and punishment.

Always remember:

Matt.5:17,18

[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus lived the perfect life WITHOUT SIN. He never sinned. Prior to His death, no one lived a perfect life on earth and SIN is what separated them from God after death. It is through His death, payment for our sins, past, present and future that through belief, we are able to be with Him in heaven. So separates and not all sin is equal, since the punishments for sin vary by the sin. You can be restored to God through repentence and renewed or sincere new belief in Him. He will forgive you of the sin because Christ paid your sin debt on the cross.

To also highlight how Christ views those that are saved by distinguishing by the individual, consider this:

Every believer's Christian life will be subject to evaluation by Christ. This judgment for all Church age believers will take place immediately after the Rapture of the Church at the Bema or Judgment Seat of Christ

Rom 14:10

[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.


1 Cor 3:10-4:5

[10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

[5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

2 Cor 5:10-14

10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[11] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

[12] For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

(He looks at your heart - the motivation and intent of what you are doing. Is it really to please Him or yourself to be glorified?)

[13] For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

[14] For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

So even believers will be judged on how they lived their life on this earth! They will be in heaven but believers that really excelled will be rewarded over other believers that didn't live their lives for Christ as well as others - and that is with Christ paying their "sin debt" - they're "saved". So yes, sin separates but also believers are also judged on how they lived their lives, motivation and intent as Christians - yes there are ALWAYS consequences for how you live your life -as a believer or a no repentent sinner. Not all sin is equal - Christ will judge fairly whether is is a believer or a non believer!

The end result of this evaluation of the believer's works will be the bestowal or denial of special rewards. So even when you are "saved" and a "sinner" you are still JUDGED to see if you have rewards to lay at His feet. Truly it should be clear that "all sin is NOT equal" and even believers are distinguished on how they sincerely serve the Lord via rewards. Believers won't be punished - except through not having rewards to lay at Christ's feet.

truthseeker815
April 5th, 2008, 02:46 PM
I remembered this Jack Kelley article about Union & Fellowship which also explains about the importance of believers confessing their sins:
The article is entitled-
If You Are Faithful to Confess
You can find it here-
http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/spiritual-life/if-you-are-faithful-to-confess
Thanks,
GraceThruFaith.com

harvest
April 5th, 2008, 03:26 PM
Any sin separates us all from God unless we sincerely repent and accept Him as our Lord and Savior.

So sin separates us from God.

In no way shape of form does the BIBLE state that “all sin is equal”. It simply states that sin separates us from God – all of us!

In fact, the BIBLE states that different sins require different punishments on this earth and by implication states that “not all sin is equal”. If “all sin is equal” than all punishments would be the same if “all sin is equal”.

All sin is NOT equal. If a person steals a car and another person murders their spouse, in a court of law, we don't offer each the same punishment for their crime. It wouldn't make sense – the crime/sin is different and requires different punishments because the sin/crime si not equal. God is very logical too!

Taking a life is worse than stealing a car and this is reflected in different punishment. In our courts we distinguish between crimes and punishment varies by the crime. It is the crime/sin that separates a person from being one who obeys laws (or God). To sin is a crime. To sin is what separates us ALL from God and God clearly delineates different punishments for different sins. Again, it is a given that ALL SIN SEPARATES us from God. “Sin is not sin” in God’s eyes – He too distinguishes one sin through another by punishment and without genuine repentance will ultimately separate you from God. Stealing a car without belief and not repenting will still separate you from God.

The converse is true as well – stealing a car, repenting and belief will restore you to God. So it is sin that separates but sins are not equal in punishment from God or for our secular courts. IMO it is humanistic teachings that want to equalize sin …perhaps for the purpose of not thinking about what the proper consequence should be to deter this kind of sin/crime. It is irresponsible to not have punishment that fits the crime to help determine further crime/sin – via proper punishment.

Take a look in the Bible and how God punishes sin/crime.

I will go right to God's Word on HIS punishments:

Adultery: Deuteronomy 22:22

[22] If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

Bestiality : Exodus 22:19

[19] Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:15

“And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast”. (Both beast and human put to death)

Cross dressing:

Deuteronomy 22:5

[5] The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.


Man who rapes a virgin:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

"If a man finds a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days

Let’s take another situation

premeditated murder and

accidental manslaughter.

The death penalty was posed for one who killed with premeditation, but not for accidental manslaughter

Exodus 21:12-13

[12] He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

[13] And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

[14] But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

[15] And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Human trafficking?

[16] And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

[17] And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Death of a pregnant woman :

[22] If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Not ALL SIN IS EQUAL! SIN SEPARATES us from God! The punishment from God varies with the crime of the sin.

]Let’s look at stealing [/U]– another “sin”:

Exod.22:1

[1] If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.

(I dare say the the sin of stealing has a different consequence than the sin of planned murder and both are sins. Sin separates us from God and God issued different consequences for different sins so all sin is NOT equal.

[2] If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.

[3] If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

[4] If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double.

[5] If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.

[6] If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.

[7] If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double.

[8] If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.

[9] For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

So just by looking at a couple of sins, we see that sin SEPARATES us from God but God doesn’t see “all sin as equal”. If God saw “all sin as equal”, than the punishments would be “equal” as well. The punishments are not all equal. For the sin of murder, premeditation and accidental manslaughter or self defense is examined. In the situation of stealing – death isn’t the punishment. Restitution is the punishment to right the situation - depending on what happened.

Some will say, “That’s Old Testament stuff”. No, it’s still pertinent. The Old Testament isn’t to be disgarded but treasured. It gives us more direct insight to God on how He see the world of sin through more specifics even if it is through a theocracy – it is how HE sees sin and punishment.

Always remember:

Matt.5:17,18

[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus lived the perfect life WITHOUT SIN. He never sinned. Prior to His death, no one lived a perfect life on earth and SIN is what separated them from God after death. It is through His death, payment for our sins, past, present and future that through belief, we are able to be with Him in heaven. So separates and not all sin is equal, since the punishments for sin vary by the sin. You can be restored to God through repentence and renewed or sincere new belief in Him. He will forgive you of the sin because Christ paid your sin debt on the cross.

To also highlight how Christ views those that are saved by distinguishing by the individual, consider this:

Every believer's Christian life will be subject to evaluation by Christ. This judgment for all Church age believers will take place immediately after the Rapture of the Church at the Bema or Judgment Seat of Christ

Rom 14:10

[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.


1 Cor 3:10-4:5

[10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

[5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

2 Cor 5:10-14

10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[11] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

[12] For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

(He looks at your heart - the motivation and intent of what you are doing. Is it really to please Him or yourself to be glorified?)

[13] For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

[14] For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

So even believers will be judged on how they lived their life on this earth! They will be in heaven but believers that really excelled will be rewarded over other believers that didn't live their lives for Christ as well as others - and that is with Christ paying their "sin debt" - they're "saved". So yes, sin separates but also believers are also judged on how they lived their lives, motivation and intent as Christians - yes there are ALWAYS consequences for how you live your life -as a believer or a no repentent sinner. Not all sin is equal - Christ will judge fairly whether is is a believer or a non believer!

The end result of this evaluation of the believer's works will be the bestowal or denial of special rewards. So even when you are "saved" and a "sinner" you are still JUDGED to see if you have rewards to lay at His feet. Truly it should be clear that "all sin is NOT equal" and even believers are distinguished on how they sincerely serve the Lord via rewards. Believers won't be punished - except through not having rewards to lay at Christ's feet.

Nice post. This goes back to my comment about the amibiguity of the OP's question. Everyone here has touched on a distinction of judgement/sin/separation. Your post pretty much included the various points we were all making.

It's the interpretation of the question that is fueling so many different points of view. I don't think any of us( i could be wrong) are disagreeing with your post. As an example, we can also say that all sin is equal in the fact that it leads to death outside of Christ. That statement is in contradistinction to what you have said, but nonetheless an accurate biblical statement.
:thumb

BlessedinHim
April 5th, 2008, 03:41 PM
Romans 6:23 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse here as far as our eternal destination, there is no difference. The wages of sin(doesnt say some sins, or part of the sins neither does it list any particular sins) We do not see sin the way the Lord sees sin. The bible says if you break one point of the law, then you are guilty of the whole law.

So in New Testament standards, the law is one, and any part of the law broken is sin.

No difference.

All sin can be forgiven except one, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

All sins are treated the same here concerning our eternal destination save the one sin.

There are different earthly consequences to the different sins, but heavenly, it doesnt matter.

so, the question should be from what perspective.

From the heavenly perspective, there is no difference.

From the earthly perspective, there is some difference in degrees of punishment of different sins while we are here on earth.

The punishment here is done to encourage an orderly system. If there were no earthly consequences to our sin, the chaos is bad now, I cant even fathom the chaos without consequences to sin. There has to be differing degrees of punishment here, or else we would really self anhilate due to the punishment of sin if it were heavenly punishment here. It is kinda like the divorce issue, it is allowed due to the hardness of our hearts.

harvest
April 5th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Romans 6:23 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse here as far as our eternal destination, there is no difference. The wages of sin(doesnt say some sins, or part of the sins neither does it list any particular sins) We do not see sin the way the Lord sees sin. The bible says if you break one point of the law, then you are guilty of the whole law.

So in New Testament standards, the law is one, and any part of the law broken is sin.

No difference.

All sin can be forgiven except one, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

All sins are treated the same here concerning our eternal destination save the one sin.

There are different earthly consequences to the different sins, but heavenly, it doesnt matter.

so, the question should be from what perspective.

From the heavenly perspective, there is no difference.

From the earthly perspective, there is some difference in degrees of punishment of different sins while we are here on earth.

The punishment here is done to encourage an orderly system. If there were no earthly consequences to our sin, the chaos is bad now, I cant even fathom the chaos without consequences to sin. There has to be differing degrees of punishment here, or else we would really self anhilate due to the punishment of sin if it were heavenly punishment here. It is kinda like the divorce issue, it is allowed due to the hardness of our hearts.

Point well made. :thumb
In heaven we will only lose rewards.

truthseeker815
April 5th, 2008, 05:04 PM
Point well made. :thumb
In heaven we will only lose rewards.

Now we're getting somewhere!:nod The believer has only the Bema Judgement Seat to deal with:thumb in regards to gain or loss of rewards:yeah

felixthecat
April 6th, 2008, 12:11 PM
Nice post. This goes back to my comment about the amibiguity of the OP's question. Everyone here has touched on a distinction of judgement/sin/separation. Your post pretty much included the various points we were all making.

It's the interpretation of the question that is fueling so many different points of view. I don't think any of us( i could be wrong) are disagreeing with your post. As an example, we can also say that all sin is equal in the fact that it leads to death outside of Christ. That statement is in contradistinction to what you have said, but nonetheless an accurate biblical statement.
:thumb

I strongly disagree that "all sin is equal". It isn't. Sin separates all of us from God from day 1 when we are born, however God doesn't automatically issue the same punishment for ANY and ALL sin if we are unsaved. God adjusts the punishment for the particular sin - stealing or murder etc.. Of course if you are saved, and repent etc. you will be forgiven.

I see the Old Testament as giving us a good glimpse into how God views sin and punishes those who sin - saved or not - look at David and the wife he plotted for and what happened to his son ... . David was a believer and still, he was punished according to his sin on earth even though he went to heaven. So even if you are a believer there will still be consequences in some form. He does chastize those he loves so yes, David was also punished for his sin, even though he was saved by the magnitutde of the sin he committed.

I see "sin separation" as common ground for all human beings when they start out in life. We are all born with a nature that predisposes us to sin. That is a universal "punishment" that we all start out with. No mere mortal is born without sin. What you do about predisposition, ultimately determines where you go eternally. It's a choice. I view the initial "separation" as a level playing field for any sinner. It's what you do about the separation that is more important.

If "all sin was equal" then the punishment would be equal - separation plus earthly death instead of say, separation plus restitution (stealing). In other words, separation is only part of the punishment that we all start out with - the rest of the punishment is determined by the particular sin(s). So, I still don't see "all sin as equal". All sin separates us from God but the punishment varies by the sin. Separation from God is how we all start out due to our sin nature.

It's similar to those that know allot of the Bible and His teaching MORE is expected from them if they are in positions of authority. For those that know less and are saved, the standard will be lower - they're saved but those that know more - will be judged differently. So the big question is, are you saved. Then there is the scale of judgement. If you know more, more is expected. If you know less, you will not be judged as harshly. THere clearly appears to be some sort of level of reward and some leveled punishment going on with God - even when you have eternal life.

Some Christians will be honored more than others in heaven because of how they lived FOR Christ. Other people will be punished more in hell because of how they lived FOR Satan and obeyed him.

God is a judge - reading the Bible it's clear to see that He is demanding and really wants us to live a certain way - from the heart and sees the difference in motivation - for Him or to "look good", appearances. It puts the kabash on good deeds getting you into heaven so no one can boast. He knows all and will judge accordingly. I

I want to make it clear that He forgives you of your sins when you ask Him but otoh He will reward those in heaven who lead an extraordinary life FOR Him on earth. Through rewarding you in heaven with crowns, he doesn't bring up your short comings but also through not receiving crowns He is singling out others that served Him better. By default He is letting you know that you were not as obedinet as other saved sinners. If you are a believer, in heaven, your sins are forgiven but you will not have as many crowns to lay at His feet. IOW, he levels justice in either direction as a fair Judge would do. Hope that makes sense.

As I logged off I thought of another way of expressing myself. It is rumored that Jeffrey Dahlmer became a Christian before he died in prision. Let's assume that is so. Like the rest of us, sin separated him from God. Let's assume he became a Christian before he died. Do you really believe that he will be rewarded the same way as others that lived a more godly life on earth? If he became a Christian, he'll be inheaven but I doubt equal to say someone like Adrian Rogers. Adrian Rogers from what I know lived a godly life - not without sin but better than other sinners. Also consider this, take those that live fairly decent lives but refuse belief. Lack of belief keeps them from heaven but do you really think they will be punished the same as someone like Hitler in hell? Or will there be degrees of punishment there too?

I'm not saying that a "good life without belief" is the way to go because you will be denied heaven. It might be interesting to have a thread on how God punishes believers and unbelievers for sin. Believers and unbelievers get punished while still on this earth. I simply see sin as separation from God and the starting point for all of us and where we are all equal but what you do about that is a choice and when you mess up there still will be consequences because He LOVES you and wants you to obey Him. No, I don't believe salvation comes and goes - you either have it or you don't. He knows your heart. He wants ALL to be saved. He LOVES ALL He created. He doesn't care about your skin color or ethnicity. We also we know:

Matt.7:14

[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I see what I wrote as being consistent with His nature concerning sin.

felixthecat
April 6th, 2008, 12:45 PM
Now we're getting somewhere!:nod The believer has only the Bema Judgement Seat to deal with:thumb in regards to gain or loss of rewards:yeah

The LOSS of REWARDS will be noticed. Those that are MORE obedient are rewarded over others who were LESS obedient to them - both are saved however one is recognized and rewarded over the other. By default it's sort of a punishment for those who receive LESS or NO rewards. It's a degree of justice or honor handed out to those who excelled over others in their life on earth. It shows not all saved folks have the same honor bestowed to them.

I sort of see it like those who study hard for a test and do well compared to those who didn't score as well because they didn't study as well. Both passed the test but some made the Honor Roll and some didn't. And no, I don't see God honoring those with more intelligence or anything like that. He will be looking at hearts and motivation, imo.

felixthecat
April 6th, 2008, 01:45 PM
Sin is what separates all of us from God. Salvation through belief is not a reward. It is Christ that paid the price for out sins. We can do nothing to earn eternal life. It is a gift from Him. Salvation is by grace and through faith. There will be rewards in heaven for works that glorify God and edify others.

2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things DONE IN THE BODY, according to what He has done, whether good or bad."

1 Corinthians 3:8

[8] Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

In Revelation 2:23 He makes it clear WORKS won’t do it. He examines your heart and mind for the motivation - as any Judge should do.

[23] … I am he which searcheth the minds and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So these folks that WORK specifically for the crowns or for salvation - will be denied:

Matt.7:22

[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Jesus says that not everyone who calls Him "Lord, Lord" will be entering into the kingdom of heaven - but only those who are willing to do the "will" of God the Father!

The “works” will be tested:

You’re just not going to fool God!

I should use verses to point out where the five crowns are discussed and given to those with extraordinary obedience to Christ. These are the five crowns (rewards to the saved, beyond being in heaven) I am talking about:

1. 3 Corinth. 9:24-25

[24] Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

[25] And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.


2. 2 Timothy 4:8

[8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

3. Jas.1:12

[12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

4. 1Pet.5

[4] And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

5. 1 Thes. 2:19-20

For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? For you are our glory and joy.

Another verse that mentions the crown of life.

Rev.2:10

[10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

On earth the saved will be blessed from time to time from God because of how they are living their life on earth, so I simple see that there are degrees of judgment (blessings/punishments) on earth and in heaven for believers and nonbelievers. God is a righteous Judge.

harvest
April 6th, 2008, 08:01 PM
I strongly disagree that "all sin is equal". It isn't. Sin separates all of us from God from day 1 when we are born, however God doesn't automatically issue the same punishment for ANY and ALL sin if we are unsaved. God adjusts the punishment for the particular sin - stealing or murder etc.. Of course if you are saved, and repent etc. you will be forgiven.

I see the Old Testament as giving us a good glimpse into how God views sin and punishes those who sin - saved or not - look at David and the wife he plotted for and what happened to his son ... . David was a believer and still, he was punished according to his sin on earth even though he went to heaven. So even if you are a believer there will still be consequences in some form. He does chastize those he loves so yes, David was also punished for his sin, even though he was saved by the magnitutde of the sin he committed.

I see "sin separation" as common ground for all human beings when they start out in life. We are all born with a nature that predisposes us to sin. That is a universal "punishment" that we all start out with. No mere mortal is born without sin. What you do about predisposition, ultimately determines where you go eternally. It's a choice. I view the initial "separation" as a level playing field for any sinner. It's what you do about the separation that is more important.

If "all sin was equal" then the punishment would be equal - separation plus earthly death instead of say, separation plus restitution (stealing). In other words, separation is only part of the punishment that we all start out with - the rest of the punishment is determined by the particular sin(s). So, I still don't see "all sin as equal". All sin separates us from God but the punishment varies by the sin. Separation from God is how we all start out due to our sin nature.

It's similar to those that know allot of the Bible and His teaching MORE is expected from them if they are in positions of authority. For those that know less and are saved, the standard will be lower - they're saved but those that know more - will be judged differently. So the big question is, are you saved. Then there is the scale of judgement. If you know more, more is expected. If you know less, you will not be judged as harshly. THere clearly appears to be some sort of level of reward and some leveled punishment going on with God - even when you have eternal life.

Some Christians will be honored more than others in heaven because of how they lived FOR Christ. Other people will be punished more in hell because of how they lived FOR Satan and obeyed him.

God is a judge - reading the Bible it's clear to see that He is demanding and really wants us to live a certain way - from the heart and sees the difference in motivation - for Him or to "look good", appearances. It puts the kabash on good deeds getting you into heaven so no one can boast. He knows all and will judge accordingly. I

I want to make it clear that He forgives you of your sins when you ask Him but otoh He will reward those in heaven who lead an extraordinary life FOR Him on earth. Through rewarding you in heaven with crowns, he doesn't bring up your short comings but also through not receiving crowns He is singling out others that served Him better. By default He is letting you know that you were not as obedinet as other saved sinners. If you are a believer, in heaven, your sins are forgiven but you will not have as many crowns to lay at His feet. IOW, he levels justice in either direction as a fair Judge would do. Hope that makes sense.

As I logged off I thought of another way of expressing myself. It is rumored that Jeffrey Dahlmer became a Christian before he died in prision. Let's assume that is so. Like the rest of us, sin separated him from God. Let's assume he became a Christian before he died. Do you really believe that he will be rewarded the same way as others that lived a more godly life on earth? If he became a Christian, he'll be inheaven but I doubt equal to say someone like Adrian Rogers. Adrian Rogers from what I know lived a godly life - not without sin but better than other sinners. Also consider this, take those that live fairly decent lives but refuse belief. Lack of belief keeps them from heaven but do you really think they will be punished the same as someone like Hitler in hell? Or will there be degrees of punishment there too?

I'm not saying that a "good life without belief" is the way to go because you will be denied heaven. It might be interesting to have a thread on how God punishes believers and unbelievers for sin. Believers and unbelievers get punished while still on this earth. I simply see sin as separation from God and the starting point for all of us and where we are all equal but what you do about that is a choice and when you mess up there still will be consequences because He LOVES you and wants you to obey Him. No, I don't believe salvation comes and goes - you either have it or you don't. He knows your heart. He wants ALL to be saved. He LOVES ALL He created. He doesn't care about your skin color or ethnicity. We also we know:

Matt.7:14

[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I see what I wrote as being consistent with His nature concerning sin.

Sorry, but I think you missed my point. I was merely taking the road that all sin without Christ leads to hell. I didn't say that punishment would be the same. It was a simple statement to show that it can be construed as me saying I believe all sins are equal.(which is what just happened)

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

As for the rewards, I think you're making assumptions to what I may believe, but again I never stated otherwise. For lack of post length, I made a short comment assuming we all know about the bema seat, but don't dig into something with a fine comb to point out mistakes that aren't there.
I gave you kudos already Felix, but if you want me to list 10 verses with my in-depth commentary on the matter, I'm sorry but I just don't want to.