Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[HeIsEnough]

Your thoughts??

The theologian you quoted has it basically correct.

The prayer portion is not an incantation though. God sees the heart, so if anyone is 'mouthing' a prayer, yet their heart is far from God, it won't mean anything.

[Mike]

Getting saved is not an experience but it is obeying the Gospel. That will follow with obedience in life.

But be very very very careful where you take that statement. It does not mean that we have to live up to some level of obedience in order to be saved.

We love Him because He first loved us, we don't love Him so that He will love us.

[Wally]

Why do we see the "works" statements made?

So that on that final day we may Stand- unashamed, having fought the good fight

So that we are not disqualified in our testimony to the unsaved world

So that we may bear fruit by submission to the Spirit that has sealed us

So that we give no place to sin or the devil by idle thought or deed


The work that we do is not so much as building, that foundation is on Christ, but remodeling, removing the rotted, the ugly, the useless, and making it fit for the habitation of Christ.

Do not be confused with the already present Holy Spirit, but by His conviction we should see ourselves for what we are and desire to be what He wants us to be, so that the work He encourages or compels us to do is to glorify Jesus.

[Kliska]

Throughout my life, I have been made to believe that at the moment a special, rather specific prayer is prayed to God, the person praying that prayer is "saved" (ie- salvation has been achieved). If this is true, what does one make of Philippians 2, specifically verse 12? (v. 12- Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, v. 13- for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.) I am wondering what your thoughts on this subject may be. Is it possible that this prayer is merely a stepping stone in the pathway to salvation? I am asking only because this topic is one that has intrigued me for some time now and I like hearing other's thoughts on the topic. Recently I read an article by theology professor Erik Thoennes on what being 'saved' means and what the bible teaches about the process.

It is the followup in verse 13 that hints at the meaning of 12; Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

For one thing, it is up to each of us as individuals to acknowledge Christ, no one else can do it for us. And, the work of God is to "believe on Him whom He hath sent." So, it is not a national faith, nor any form of group faith; it is an individual act. Also, it is up to each of us to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as He seeks to change each one of us; again, Paul instructs us elsewhere to yield to righteousness. If someone truly means what they say if they pray a "sinner's prayer" then the Spirit indwells them upon salvation and it is the Spirit that truly changes us.

And, as others have said, when the Bible talks of "perfecting" it usually means, in our English, "completing." So, for example Hebrews 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Several translations read "make you complete in every good work to do his will..." So, it is indeed a process of "perfecting" or completing, and that is owed to the Spirit.

[HeIsEnough]

Getting saved is not an experience but it is obeying the Gospel. That will follow with obedience in life.

Which is quite an experience, wouldn't you say?



But be very very very careful where you take that statement. It does not mean that we have to live up to some level of obedience in order to be saved.


Correct in terms of there is nothing we can do to earn or maintain salvation. There is nothing God requires for salvation, save what Christ has done. All are free to come to Him, but they must come to Him.

However, many will focus upon sanctification to prove justification. Even Paul relates the same in the gospel Christ gave him:



Acts 26:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=26&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

We see the dual nature presented in the scriptures. One being that salvation is free to all who ask, nothing required but believing what Christ has done. The other being that if a man truly draw near to God and be born again, the same man will be forever changed, and will "do works meet for repentance", as the KJV states it. This is the one proof we are told to look for, the works the Spirit does upon a man, the fruit of the Spirit. Sanctification is of Him.

[corduroymissle]

[QUOTE=Sing4Him;531685]What is your question?

The POINT of salvation? Or are you looking at a "works" salvation because of that one verse?

No. I'm not looking at a 'works' salvation. I'm merely posing the question of whether or not salvation is achieved at any one point and whether or not that one point, if it exists, is distinguishable. I believe a couple of you are on track with saying that once a person accepts Christ there will be a noticeable change in their lives. They will produce fruit. But, does this mean they are saved? Can they be saved without this? Do we know what being saved entails? Do we agree on this? Do those that do not agree with these thoughts on salvation not actually have the salvation that they believe they have? Okay. That should spur on the conversation a bit.

[corduroymissle]

For one thing, it is up to each of us as individuals to acknowledge Christ, no one else can do it for us. And, the work of God is to "believe on Him whom He hath sent." So, it is not a national faith, nor any form of group faith; it is an individual act... And, as others have said, when the Bible talks of "perfecting" it usually means, in our English, "completing." So, for example Hebrews 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Several translations read "make you complete in every good work to do his will..." So, it is indeed a process of "perfecting" or completing, and that is owed to the Spirit.


I like this. This is good.

[corduroymissle]

I would ask this, however. If all one need do is ask the Holy Spirit to enter, and it is a perfecting process, and the rest is up to the Spirit, why would one need to 'continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.' To me, this is quite possibly the most intimidating verse in the Bible.

[Mike]

Which is quite an experience, wouldn't you say?



Correct in terms of there is nothing we can do to earn or maintain salvation. There is nothing God requires for salvation, save what Christ has done. All are free to come to Him, but they must come to Him.

However, many will focus upon sanctification to prove justification. Even Paul relates the same in the gospel Christ gave him:



We see the dual nature presented in the scriptures. One being that salvation is free to all who ask, nothing required but believing what Christ has done. The other being that if a man truly draw near to God and be born again, the same man will be forever changed, and will "do works meet for repentance", as the KJV states it. This is the one proof we are told to look for, the works the Spirit does upon a man, the fruit of the Spirit. Sanctification is of Him.
Yeah agreed about the works.

I just try to be very careful with how I say it. It is walking a fine line in a sense. It can be problematic depending on how it is preached. In my own op some preachers are not careful enough with how they put it. And they wind up putting a burden on people that God does not intend.

What I mean is that some preachers press the point of our faithfulness to far. They wind up leaving a lot of people thinking that if they stumble, or if they don't match up to a certain standard of Godliness then they aren't saved, and they have people trying to love God out of fear.

So there is a fine line, yes a truly saved person will be marked by repentance, but God does not want us to love Him based on fear of not being saved or of losing our salvation, rather He wants us to understand our security in Him and love Him because of that.

There are some rather prominent preachers that don't follow this fine line correctly in my op, and have there people wound up tight as a rubber band serving God out of fear.

[HeIsEnough]

I'm merely posing the question of whether or not salvation is achieved at any one point and whether or not that one point, if it exists, is distinguishable.

Why wouldn't it be? From our perspective, it most certainly is.



I believe a couple of you are on track with saying that once a person accepts Christ there will be a noticeable change in their lives. They will produce fruit. But, does this mean they are saved?

Again, why wouldn't it constitute the whole of the matter?

The Spirit testifies (evidences) with our spirit that we are a child of God.


Can they be saved without this?

How could they be? If one does not have the Spirit, they are none of His.


Do we know what being saved entails?

Do we? Do you?


Do we agree on this?

On what? You're being a little vague. Speak your mind in what you think people are not getting, and we may agree or not.


Do those that do not agree with these thoughts on salvation not actually have the salvation that they believe they have?

Haven't really seen what you're specifically contending with yet, so its difficult to say...



That should spur on the conversation a bit.

We should be looking for understanding, so give us your understanding of the matter. What do the scriptures say? How do you read them?