Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[HeIsEnough]

Welcome.


I find that the majority that stick to their Arminian views are also the most condemning and self righteous Christians of all.

We all find differing amounts of condemning, self righteous individuals in various camps. Probably best to keep these observations to ourselves.

[Wally]

Yuke:

Nicely said. Very neat observation.

I go with the idea that to loose salvation requires work; as no effort on our part can save us, the contrapositive must be true as well,
No not work can loose our salvation.

Receiving a gift is not work, but there are some who refuse to open it.
As to sinning, perhapes you're hitting on an event we all eagerly await:

The (hypostatic ?) dis-union- when our Spirit born selves are finally separated from the sin-corrupted flesh vessel we currently have. When we receive our robes, and crowns, or at least a push broom - me, and see our Lord face to face we will be free from all sin and it's influence.

[ihope]

Yukerboy...I asked the question above your thread about receiving the Mark....your statement definitely makes it much clearer! :hug I guess I just have to keep working on my communication skills huh??

[Kliska]

When talking about OSAS, most people looking at the issue discuss these verses of Hebrews to be the focal point of the matter:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Thoughts?

[Wally]

Kliska:

Open forum, or would you like someone elses response?

[HeIsEnough]

Thoughts?

Once Lost Always Lost (OLAL) comes from this text if one is viewing what is presented as salvation itself. Further scrutiny shows the same type of person who fits into the parable of the sower and other scriptures.

The verse does not actually say one experiencing those things is saved.

It actually goes on to say this "person" would still need to have an 'accompanying salvation' to follow this 'experience'.

Since the book is titled "Hebrews", it is best to view it in that light, unless the context calls for otherwise. If we put a first century Jew under this experience, we see they have competing issues they must deal with. Namely, Christ or Judaism, as it was starkly presented back in that day. One under the circumstances of ~40 AD would have been shunned for claiming Christ. Therefore, reading this situation back into that text, it becomes much more clear who and what the writer was referencing.

So, if someone claims Christ, yet falls back under the law on purpose, Christ is no affect to them, since Christ was the fulfillment of that very same law.

[Wally]

Hebrews 6:4 Context x3


First:
other scripture: It is by grace you are saved. Gift. You cannot loose it.

Second:
this is written to persecuted Jews suffering ostrization and other deprivations. They were considering going back to Judiasm.

Third:
The writer (unknown Paul?) starts at verse 1 saying the foundation is already laid. Lets press on.

Then he uses this literiary device: NOW lets assume the impossible:

If you could fall away(doubt for a moment, trip, sin, turn) THEN there is no remedy to bring you back. Don't you see this cant happen? You cant lay a foundation on a foundation. It's already there. Now we build on what has been established. And God futher promises to complete that work and because (Hebrews 6:18) it is impossible for God to lie (heard that before?)we can be assured of the fact. So by His character and His oath He seals us for a future with Him.

[Kliska]

How does one partake of the Spirit without being saved? The word for partake also is translated "partner."

And, the word for taste is also translated as "eat" elsewhere in scripture. For example, it is used when Christ tasted death, and we do know that He fully partook of death, then it reversed. "Once enlightened" is an interesting phrase, it doesn't say, those who were enlightened, but "once" enlightened. What are they falling away (apostasy) from?

Keep in mind, I lean toward, and at this point believe in, total perseverance of the Saints, but this verse (as all others) is worth delving into. Are these people all but saved, and then deny Christ? Are they evangelizers that really didn't believe? One issue I have is that the phrase "enlightened" or in the light, illumined, describes true believers as well. Also the phrase brought back to repentance could be seen as describing a repentant experience. Pistis, faith isn't a work, so is apistis; or "unfaith" a work?

Another passage I've seen argued over:

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; ) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

So, now we have some one who was sanctified doing a huge huge no-no. Will God kill that person and take them, or will He set up their life to punish them, or will they simply lose all reward?

Again, don't jump all over me :heh or assume I don't believe in God's ability to keep a saint a saint! These are important verses because they have and will come up in any discussion on OSAS or perserverance.

[Yukerboy]

ihurt, your question is a fair one and I was extremely disappointed when I read the Left Behind books.

In them, a Christian was forced to receive the mark of the beast. The question was, is that Christian saved?

The Left Behind books claim yes. I believe no. No Christian will be forced to take the Mark. All people who take the mark are not saved, though I do think there will be some that take the mark still believing they were saved and find that they are not.

There are people today who believe they are truly saved and are not. It's not that a Christian loses salvation when he takes the mark. That person never had salvation to begin with.

Wally, I understand what you are saying. In the spiritual body there shall be no sin. However, I believe that a Christian in his fleshly body is unable to sin.

Yuke

[Kliska]

Hebrews 6:4 Context x3


First:
other scripture: It is by grace you are saved. Gift. You cannot loose it.

Second:
this is written to persecuted Jews suffering ostrization and other deprivations. They were considering going back to Judiasm.

Third:
The writer (unknown Paul?) starts at verse 1 saying the foundation is already laid. Lets press on.

Then he uses this literiary device: NOW lets assume the impossible:

If you could fall away(doubt for a moment, trip, sin, turn) THEN there is no remedy to bring you back. Don't you see this cant happen? You cant lay a foundation on a foundation. It's already there. Now we build on what has been established. And God futher promises to complete that work and because (Hebrews 6:18) it is impossible for God to lie (heard that before?)we can be assured of the fact. So by His character and His oath He seals us for a future with Him.

I think this handles it pretty well; also, it is imporant to note, in the verse the word is repentance, not "salvation;" (6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance)

If someone were to abandon the idea of Christ and try to return to the law, (as it is rightly pointed out, this is the book of Hebrews, so would involve the law) their turn back to that would not forgive sin; meaning there are no more sacrifices you can turn to, in order to effect true repentance; only Christ. That return to the old sacrificial system would insult Christ, and be of none effect.