Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[acceptedintheBeloved]

This board is in the once saved always saved camp. I am not in this camp. However I still do believe that all saved go in the rapture. We both believe if a person was left behind they were not saved. The group of people we disagree on is not the professing non-believer, but the professing "Christian".

OSAS has to say the person was never saved. The other camp can say that or they can say they fell away from the faith. It would seem that OSAS does not believe in any falling from faith. Can't be snatched from His hand, Sealed by the Holy Spirit, etc. I have heard all the arguments.

My question is this. What do we do with verses like this?

1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

You can't depart from the faith if you were never in the faith. The bible is full of warnings not to fall from the faith, to watch, to remain in the vine, etc. How does a OSAS person reconcile this?:thinking

My understanding is that the context in particular (here in I Timothy 4) is "false teachers" and that "the faith" is talking about "the body of truth", "the Scriptures", "the doctrine/teaching" (rather than personal "saving faith" in Christ alone, for salvation.)

Now, there are many so-called "Christian" churches where most individuals (if they believe what their church teaches i.e. false doctrine) are not saved (they do not possess "personal faith in Christ.")

But "departing from the Scriptures" ("the faith", the body of truth) does not indicate/mean "lose their salvation" but rather a "giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...", etc. Meaning the doctrine/scriptures. That is something even the unsaved can depart from.
It would be like someone saying... "I used to believe the Bible was the only source of truth, but now I also embrace New Age thought...", etc. This person, for example, never was saved, even though they upheld the Bible as true. Now, they've departed from "the faith" (the body of TRUTH as found in the Bible), to embrace false doctrine (and, in this case, even teach it. Which is what Paul was warning Timothy of. Timothy, being the leader of a church, was to protect it from these false teachers, even then. How much moreso, "in the latter times.")

(These have never possessed personal faith in Christ alone for salvation.) Hope that made sense. :)

[JustinSolo]

I just don't see how warnings of departing from the faith are important if you really are not departing from the saving faith. You have to be a part of something before you can depart from it. To me the plain reading of scripture gives me the idea of people falling from the faith.

Also we have a whole section here at the boards on Apostasy. That deals with people falling from faith. Now if we just say "oh they were never saved", then why would I warn somebody to watch and be careful that you don't fall from the faith. I should just be telling him to get saved.

I just cannot seem to reconcile this problem logically unless I accept that some will indeed actually fall away from the faith.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I see it as applying to "professing Christians" (and false teachers) who add "good works" in order to "be saved" (which is a departure from "the faith once delivered..." (Jude 3) The truth... part of which is what God gave Paul to record: salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. The other part, which has to do with turning God's grace into "license.")

Not sure if I'm writing that very clearly... (my brains don't work well on Mondays... :hehee )

I guess I see it as a warning to not follow after those who depart from the truth of God's Word (false teachers/false teaching/false doctrine.) It would be possible for a true believer to do so, if not careful (but not to "lose their salvation", which is impossible.)

(Descriptive of "Christendom"...)

[No2Flesh]

Yes, but what does it mean to repent? Does it mean to be sorry, and to promise God that you'll never sin again? If you do, then you've just made a promise you can't keep, because you will sin again. Not because you want to or intend to, but because you have a sin nature.

This is what I've learned repentance means. It means to recognize that you're a sinner, lost and in need of salvation. It means turning to Christ and asking Hm to forgive you, save you from your sins, and live in you. Once you've done that, you've done all the repenting needed to be saved. The fruit of repentance is turning away from sin and turning toward Jesus.



Kathy G.

Very clearly stated. I agree.

See the thief on the cross.:thumb

[ChristianGal]

It is repentant faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior that seals until the day of redemption. Believer's names are already written in the book of life.

One can be a baby believer and even backslidden and WILL be raptured. The backslidden believer will be convicted by the Holy Spirit. If the B.B. does not turn to Jesus with confession, God will chastise.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev 3:19

IF there is absolutely no conviction, no remorse, no desire to come into fellowship with the Savior and there is continuation in grievious sin, then it is possible that they did not come to repentant faith to begin with. *This is something ONLY God knows*

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me John 10:27

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. 1 Peter 2:25

We can pray for the backslidden and also those who have not yet come to Jesus.:pray


All believers will be part of the rapture. (per repentant faith in Jesus.. not just "easy-believism")

I think you really hit the nail on the head here.

[saint-in-training]

Wow, I don't think I've ever heard it put quite like that...but you're right. It's not up to us to judge. Only He can know the hearts of men. Another issue here is what happens to the Holy Spirit that endwells you after salvation? Does it flee and come back, flee and come back??? I don't think that's biblical either. I don't think folks are putting enough stock into how important those crowns are going to be! Not to mention yes! He can cut your life short!

Re 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

[Bluelew]

Amen.:thumb

[jblovesJesus]

ok,

So i've been a Christian since i was 18 but have struggled with lust and pornography going back to a painful childhood memory. I truly believe in Jesus and was baptized on May 28,2000. So i'm wondering, will I be raptured, I'm really turning the corner on this and its thanks to a girl.

YBIC,
Johnny B

[Bluelew]

My friend if you have confessed,you are forgiven,
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

This board is full of people that are ready to pray with you.
I'll see ya here, there or in the air!

[juan53]

I have been saved since 1968. I asked my best friend father how would I would I'm saved a year from now or 5, 10,20 years he said you would know. It's been "40" years that I have been saved. Yes I have fallen, but always came back. I want you all to know you are saved now and forever. My GOD is great.