Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Buzzardhut]

http://misslink.org/chapel/askaminister/practical/suicide3.html

If it is true if a christian commit suicide and will go to Heaven, why not do it now and go to Heaven?
Would a true Christian do this?
A true Christian has responsibilities to live out an obedient life unto God.
The longer you live the more Bema rewards you accumulate.

That missinglink site purports an insecure, works based, lose your salvation position that does not fully understand propitiation or the blood covenant atonement.

[RefinedbyFire]

Is there any reason to go beyond your first sentence?

"Yes, you have to believe and trust in Christ."

I'm not here to argue any point, only to say that we cannot give someone assurance, so I don't see much danger in giving someone a false assurance.

We can only state to believe the gospel, there's nothing else we need to do in terms of salvation. As believers are sanctified, many other things will happen.

I understand your point, but I have to answer your question with a "Yes." Yes, because I was a "prodigal son" and in the midst of my "lost sheep" state, if you would have stopped me and asked me: "Do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe the Gospel He spoke was true?" I would have said "Yes." (I carried a general respect for the Bible, and my upbringing). Well, if I really believed in Him, why was I walking the way I was? Why did my path lead to much heartache and sorrow? Answer = Sin.

I agree with what you're saying about sharing the Gospel. The Holy Spirit does it all. Only Jesus can save...

OK, I have got to get going...

[HeIsEnough]

I understand your point, but I have to answer your question with a "Yes." Yes, because I was a "prodigal son" and in the midst of my "lost sheep" state, if you would have stopped me and asked me: "Do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe the Gospel He spoke was true?" I would have said "Yes." (I carried a general respect for the Bible, and my upbringing). Well, if I really believed in Him, why was I walking the way I was? Why did my path lead to much heartache and sorrow? Answer = Sin.

The prodigal son came back. The Lord sees the beginning from the end. I don't have the answer why some, or most really, stray from the Lord's instructions. Only that if it be real, it will be real. I don't consider my days beyond belief to have been in unbelief. They may have been wallowing in the mud, but they were not in unbelief. And if wallowing in the mud meant I was unsaved, then His grace is not sufficient, and my discipline was not effective. Anyone who thinks they can do whatever they want after coming to the Lord is in for a rude shock. He will assure it.

[RefinedbyFire]

The prodigal son came back. The Lord sees the beginning from the end. I don't have the answer why some, or most really, stray from the Lord's instructions. Only that if it be real, it will be real. I don't consider my days beyond belief to have been in unbelief. They may have been wallowing in the mud, but they were not in unbelief. And if wallowing in the mud meant I was unsaved, then His grace is not sufficient, and my discipline was not effective. Anyone who thinks they can do whatever they want after coming to the Lord is in for a rude shock. He will assure it.

I see what you mean. But, I do think being given over to a hardened heart, and blinded eyes, is being handed over to a form of unbelief. As we can see from the parable, the "lost son" was "dead in transgressions" before being made "alive again." While a "slave to sin" and in bondage, I struggled back-and-forth, back-and-forth, trying to live right, but not seemingly finding a way out (nor going to His Cross). I believe the Lord had mercy on my soul, because He is faithful to His promises, prayers of people for me, and the fact that I did go through a lot of hard things. On the night of my repentance, I wept the night way, knowing how I had deeply failed Him in my sin. I also believe I can recall telling Him how much I needed His help, because I didn't understand my life, and the challenges I had been given, and I couldn't do it anymore. That's the night I came to the end of myself, and He "set me free." That's the night when it all became clear to me: He is the Potter, and we are the clay. His grace is extended to all men to repent and believe. He atones for our sins. No excuses! No pity parties! Follow the Savior and Lord! Repent and believe His Gospel!

I have to get going... I am so upset at myself! Lol! :)

[usaf_chaplain]

I understand your point. What you're saying is: Nobody can can give assurance to you that you are saved. You alone have the personal responsibility to make sure you know Jesus personally, and see if you're really in the faith, or not. In Christ, one should have the natural progression of growing in, and obeying His Word, working out (not earning) their salvation, and making their election is sure. Right? I agree with that. As we know, the Bible calls it "sanctification."

However, I don't feel that point cancels out the fact that when we share the Gospel, we are sharing the "A,B,C's" of it. When you share the Gospel, you share Christ and Him crucified. You don't share, or preach, the Gospel by first saying: "Seek a feeling of salvation assurance between you and the Lord." That assurance naturally comes when a person hears the Gospel, and they repent and believe/receive and follow Jesus. You see?

Way back in the thread, I bullet-pointed my thoughts in a 1,2,3 (or A,B,C)fashion, and nothing was unBiblical about it. In fact, #3 reminded him to make sure he knew Jesus personally, to follow Him, and look to Him for assurance. When you jumped in, you harshly criticized ("shame on anybody") anybody who gives A,B,Cs to him, and yet, you turn, and you give your own A,B,Cs to him (some through a PM). Ya know? So, I don't understand that... If Sean isn't saved, and the Holy Spirit is drawing Him, you share the "A,B,Cs" of the Gospel with him... (Romans 1:16)

Anyways, I have to get going. Peace in Him, bro! I get your point, and I hope you get mine. :) By the way, through this post, I'm more deeply appreciative of what a glorious Gospel it is! I didn't think I could appreciate it on a deeper level, but I somehow do!

Agreed and your point is well taken. However, I'll add one more caution...I know many (and you may too) that have (1) walked forward during an invitation, (2) taken the pastor's hand and prayed the "sinner's prayer", and (3) even filled out a decision card, and never stepped foot in a church again, never lived a life that gave evidence of a changed life, never lived for Christ, and in many cases, lived in blatent sin. But when confronted they point back to that time when the did those three things and then add, "and I believe in once saved always saved..." So I think that was my primary concern by suggesting the A, B, and C thing early on. Even the book of Hebrews tells us about people who believe everything the Bible says about Jesus...with their heads, but not their hearts. Only the Holy Spirit can bring about conversion. This is an extreme example, but I used to work for a liberal social service organization. There were several people who worked here who were opennly homosexual/lesbian, many living with their "partners" and all of whom were members of local churches (even some baptist churches, God forbid). They all claimed to be God's children, all claimed to believe in Jesus, all claimed to be right with God, but you and I both know if you check the list in 1 Corinthians 6, there are certain people who are not saved, and will not be spending eternity with Christ unless they repent, and I would suggest that these coworkers fall in that category...self-deceived. I don't know why I got into all this, other than to again remind us all to be careful how we answer others who might be struggling in their relationship with Christ. And I think we are both on the same page there, so maybe this post will help another. Take care...I gotta go fight the War on Terror!

[usaf_chaplain]

Is there any reason to go beyond your first sentence?

"Yes, you have to believe and trust in Christ."

I'm not here to argue any point, only to say that we cannot give someone assurance, so I don't see much danger in giving someone a false assurance.

We can only state to believe the gospel, there's nothing else we need to do in terms of salvation. As believers are sanctified, many other things will happen.

...just to add some more thought on my understanding of the scriptures.

If we actively believe and trust in Him, we have assurance. So the question is, do we believe and trust in Him? When I say believe, I mean we really believe, not just mental assent. When we actually trust, I mean we truly trust, like we do with our brakes to stop a car. We believe, we trust. If this cannot be, then no amount of assurance in any other way will be enough.


I would also add that Jesus always preached, "repent and believe the gospel". Let's not forget the importance of repentence in a gospel presentation....and thanks be to God who gives us the grace to repent and believe!

[usaf_chaplain]

Anyone who thinks they can do whatever they want after coming to the Lord is in for a rude shock. He will assure it.

Amen to that! My life is living testimony to that.

[usaf_chaplain]

[QUOTE=RefinedbyFire;655633]Yes, you have to believe and trust in Christ. As we know, really believing in Jesus means believing in what He says... :) QUOTE]

And believing Who He is. In fact, I like to explain it like this, we must believe that Jesus is Who He claimed to be and that He is able to do what He said He could do:

Who is He? God come in human flesh to save sinners.
What can He do? Forgive sins and guarantee eternal life.

I like the words of Paul, "If you believe in your heart that Jesus died and rose again..."

[WCG777]

i also read that everyone who calls upon Jesus will not enter the Kingdom of God and i thi nk I am one of them even though that I absolutly have 100% percent faith in Jesus and God and know that he was my savior.

I do not know where your getting this but it is wrong. The only thing I can think of is when jesus tells people to depart from him because he never knew them. These people Jesus is telling this to are false preachers and teachers and also people that had jesus in there head and not there heart.. Jesus needs to be in your heart and lord of your life.

1. Am i doomed to Hell???? No your not
2. do i need to be rebatized???? I would strongly recommend it because you will have a day you can point to when satan is bothering you about not being saved
3. I am terrified of the Rapture B/c I am scared to be judged of what i did by denying Jesus and God is this bad???? Since it sounds like you have been saved your denying jesus will not be remembered. Remember the disciple Peter denied jesus three times before the cock crowed. There is no reason to fear the rapture if your saved..
4. DO yall think the rapture will happen in my lifetime I am 25. nobody can say when but I would say there is a great chance. If your were 80yrs old I would say it would be a great chance you would witness it..
5. Are you scared of the rapture? there is no reason to be scared of the rapture is a joyous event for a Christian. It means your groom is coming for you and you should be excited like a bride is for her wedding
6. How close do you think we are to the rapture? Nobody can answer this but if the birth of Israel is indication very close.


There have been rapers,killers witches, gays and other people that have committed worse crimes then you have that have came to get saved. Just make sure you are saved and he is in your heart and not just in your head.

[HeIsEnough]

I would also add that Jesus always preached, "repent and believe the gospel". Let's not forget the importance of repentence in a gospel presentation....and thanks be to God who gives us the grace to repent and believe!

I think it is inherently included in saying "I believe"

Men do what they believe. If I really believe something, I will do it. If I say I believe something, but do the opposite, then do I really believe?

For us believers, when that happens, we are devastated. We repent, and live life in that way. After a while we start to walk without stumbling every day. I know for me, when I have sinned, my heart is crushed. I'm not speaking about what many today would call sin, like having a beer, but what God calls sin. That which is not of faith.

Its when we say we believe the Lord, and do the opposite of what He says, and not think a thing about it, that is when something is not right about our saying "I believe", and we only deceive ourselves. This is how I think about Mr. Spong and people like him.