Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Ormly]

Depends on what you mean by "The Church". The true Church (those who have a relationship with Christ) will all go, but the letters in Revelation are distinguishing who will go, who will not, and those that think they're going, but get spewed. Those churches, in addition to being actual churches, are also representative of individual hearts in the last days. There's lots of false gospels, ie. churches, & hearts.


Absolutely! Lots-o-people going to be surprised and disappointed, I'm afraid.

....And I blame most all of this on the church, who for so long, has NOT preached a complete-sustaining gospel.

[Ormly]

24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.


This version is a little clearer, castaway from his place as shepherd to sheep is how I see it. Anytime they talk about crowns I thinkg it must mean they're talking about specific rewards in Heaven, or levels of reward, not salvation. I could be wrong.

Doesn't really say it for me. Still too much to do with reward, something for me, and not enough about the possibility of losing out on son-ship, something for Father....the purpose for redemption. Gal 4.4-7.

[Ormly]

But I think that's the point.... If you are saved, and not just faking yourself out, you can't walk away. I have read it in context. The seal cannot be broken. But if many of the greatest biblical scholars on earth cannot come to agreement on this issue, I doubt we all will either. It's good discussion and I value your input, will continue my diligent pursuit of all God can show me. Thanks for challenging us.

32Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

34Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

35And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

By your logic, the Lord would have to mean all sin could wipe us out of the book, wouldn't it? They were to deal with sin through sacrificial offerings. Christ changed that, He is the sacrifice, even for the very last sin that anybody will ever commit on earth. It's already considered.

Read my last to you re: castaway. See what you think.

[Ormly]

John was written to this point: "These things I have written to you who believe in the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.(1 John 5:13)." Notice that the Apostle says you now have eternal life. We don't get eternal life after we die... we have it right now, when we believe.

Now, let's follow this idea to its logical conclusion. If we know we have eternal life when we believe in Jesus, how long does eternal life last? Can you have eternal life for a year? A week? A day? If words mean anything at all, then eternal life must be eternal. It must last forever! Eternal life by definition cannot be lost.

Let's look at it another way. What sin is so big that Jesus' death could not atone for it? There is none that I know of (we'll exclude for the moment the passage of Mark 3:28-30, as it really doesn't apply here). Every sin that man can commit against God and man, even the most heinous was dealt with at the cross of Calvary. If this is so, then what sin can be so bad that it would cause God to "unforgive" that which He has already paid for? Romans 8:38-39 explicitly states this, saying "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." I am a created thing. The verse above states that created things cannot separate us from the love of God, therefore I cannot separate myself from the love of God, either!

Also, in John 10:29, Jesus tells us "And I give eternal life to them; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." No one includes me! Notice the picture here. You are being held in Jesus' hand, and in the Father's hand. Cup one of your hands over the other, as you would hold a frightened bird. That is the way God holds onto you.

For example, on the day of judgment when some seek salvation based upon their works Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23). They were never known, that is, they were never saved although they appeared, from the human perspective, to be saved. Jesus says that His sheep will "never perish but have eternal life" (John 10:28). How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost particularly when Jesus said that they will never perish. If they will never perish, then they can't lose their salvation. Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Rom. 8:38-39).

I see these "divine perspective" type verses as giving us glimpses into the viewpoint of God. I see the other verses as being stated from a human perspective, that they appeared to be saved and then appeared to lose it (Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6). However, 1 John 2:19 says in dealing with antichrists, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us," (NASB). I see this verse saying two things: First, that if it appears that false teachers leave because they are not regenerated to begin with. In other words, if someone had salvation and then lost it, it was because they never were saved in the first place. Second, it says that if someone is saved, they will remain in the faith.

Continuity of faith is a condition of salvation in other administrations (Matt. 24: 13, etc.), but Scripture makes it very evident that we are in a unique and different administration at present, called in Ephesians 3:2 “the administration of the grace of God.” Since “grace” means “divine favour” it is logical, therefore, that God would have a more favorable program for salvation for those living in this age.

After Christ's atoning work on the cross we were now under Grace and not subject to the punishment of a law we are never capable of keeping.

Romans 6:1-23 addresses the issue of continuing to sin after being united with Christ through salvation. Never in the entire passage is there any suggestion that continuing to sin will cause the believer to forfeit his salvation and eternal life. What is supposed to restrain the believer from continuing to sin after salvation is not fear of losing his salvation but moral arguments designed to educate the believer's conscience. These arguments are based on two things: the believer's identification with Christ and the tendency of sin to enslave. If salvation could be lost because of continued sin, this section of Scripture would have been the perfect place to say so. The fact that the issue is addressed head on in Scripture without a word about the loss of salvation is persuasive proof that the apostle's doctrine did not include the idea that the Christian could lose his or her salvation by sin.

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here's a great link that explains it better.

Secure Salvation (http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=positions&aid=199)


No cigar. You are over looking man's freewill in all this and his attraction to the Father, as John infers, that keeps him; active love, not for the Father but to the Father fully demonstrated in life this side of Glory.

[Ormly]

When ever you encounter the term "saved" in Scripture you need to ask the question ... "saved from what"?

The term means very different things over time ...

How 'bout asking "unto what are we saved"? We use the term "we are saved to be saved" what does that mean? Also, in today's post-modern emergent, "cotton candy church", the question "unto what" seems most important to ask.

[Ormly]

I think this is where we were;



Figure out who had NOT sinned against him, and you have the answer here.

Here's a hint;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.



The question then becomes, how do we overcome;

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

But were they doomed to hell or was the "promised" land, spiritually speaking for our benefit, something THEY prevented themselves from entering. Not salvation do I speak, but something greater. [for goinghome, castaways]

What is the "promised" land, I believe, we should be experiencing, now?

[LaMontre]

But were they doomed to hell or was the "promised" land, spiritually speaking for our benefit, something THEY prevented themselves from entering. Not salvation do I speak, but something greater. [for goinghome, castaways]

What is the "promised" land, I believe, we should be experiencing, now?

The answer (if I understand you correctly) is there in Hebrews;

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus<---Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

[Ormly]

The answer (if I understand you correctly) is there in Hebrews;

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus<---Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Since all that applies to born again people I know what it infers, but I am wondering if you?

[LaMontre]

Since all that applies to born again people I know what it infers, but I am wondering if you?

Your wondering if I.....what??

What do you mean, "applies to born again people"?

[Ormly]

Your wondering if I.....what??

What do you mean, "applies to born again people"?






I have a tendency to drop words so be aware of that. For what complications that arise from that, I sincerely apologize.

No. I wonder if you know what the whole of it implies and what it is referring to?