Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Todd]

Terry and I have come up general agreement between each other.

"If you're living like the devil, you was never saved in the first place."

I was going to pull the pages because we didn't want to get into an endless debate that didn't changed anything. I'm going to do that so there is no conflict between the board and the site.

[ScoobyDoo]

Terry and I have come up general agreement between each other.

"If you're living like the devil, you was never saved in the first place."

I was going to pull the pages because we didn't want to get into an endless debate that didn't changed anything. I'm going to do that so there is no conflict between the board and the site.

Thank you Todd for responding. I am definitely OSAS, but do feel that there are false converts out there that think they are saved.

Just MHO. :hug

[mistertwisty]

I am asking because I am not able to find defining scripture that goes either way on this. Most of the verses I find have the word "if" in them. On my wed night bible study we have been going through John 15:6, and digging into it's meaning.

John 15:6 (New King James Version)

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

I would like to hear from both sides of the discussion we can or cannot loose our salvation. I will try to play devils advocate from both points of view. I am hoping that someone has the answers I am looking for. I am honestly seeking the truth, so please don't think I am trying to put a stumbling block in front of anyone, just feeling convicted to find out about this.


Hope this makes sense to someone other than me

[Mike]

I am asking because I am not able to find defining scripture that goes either way on this. Most of the verses I find have the word "if" in them. On my wed night bible study we have been going through John 15:6, and digging into it's meaning.

John 15:6 (New King James Version)

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

I would like to hear from both sides of the discussion we can or cannot loose our salvation. I will try to play devils advocate from both points of view. I am hoping that someone has the answers I am looking for. I am honestly seeking the truth, so please don't think I am trying to put a stumbling block in front of anyone, just feeling convicted to find out about this.


Hope this makes sense to someone other than me
Once saved always saved is a clear cut fact. It is undeniable. Those who believe otherwise are mistaken.

There are many verses when taken out of the immediate context and/or when taken out of the larger context would seem to indicate that one can lose their salvation. However that is not possible and all of those verse when taken in context can be understood.

The verse that you quote is one of the more difficult ones.

You were rather vague about what it is that you are looking for. Responding to these type of questions properly can be very time consuming. And the fact is that most people who start these threads already have their mind made up with regards to the doctrine and responding to them in detail winds up being a waste of time.

So could you be more specific about where you stand on the doctrine and what it is that you are looking for?

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[mistertwisty]

where I stand is basically teetering between the two views. I find good arguments for both cases. I think the word "if" as I stated is the one that gives me the most trouble. Like I said before, this is a sincere attemp to figure this out, and I promise I am not just "looking for an argument". I will however put anyone through the paces on the issue, that's because I want to be real sure that scripture backs it up. I don't intend for this to degenerate into a predestination thread, but somehow freewill has to be taken into consideration.

You state that it is an undeniable fact, what scripture do you use to back that view? (in context of course)

Yes I know it is a difficult verse, in fact that is exactly the reason our pastor chose it. I have spent 6 weeks looking at context and relative scripture, and I am still not able to make up my mind on what this says.

[Mike]

where I stand is basically teetering between the two views. I find good arguments for both cases. I think the word "if" as I stated is the one that gives me the most trouble. Like I said before, this is a sincere attemp to figure this out, and I promise I am not just "looking for an argument". I will however put anyone through the paces on the issue, that's because I want to be real sure that scripture backs it up. I don't intend for this to degenerate into a predestination thread, but somehow freewill has to be taken into consideration.

You state that it is an undeniable fact, what scripture do you use to back that view? (in context of course)

Yes I know it is a difficult verse, in fact that is exactly the reason our pastor chose it. I have spent 6 weeks looking at context and relative scripture, and I am still not able to make up my mind on what this says.
Ok sorry if my post came accross a little bit rude.

On the John 15 verse you mentioned, those are talking about fruit bearing. He wants us to bear much fruit, and we will do that if we abide in Him. But if we don't do that the result is good for nothing except to be burned.

Now compare that 1 Cor. 3:13-15

[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If we abide in Him we bear much fruit and recieve a reward. If we don't abide in Him we will be serving our flesh and producing works that are good for nothing and will be burned.

Eternal security is one of the most rock solid doctrines in the Bible. We can show verse after verse to clearly show that it is solid and true. Here is my favorite.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever...

It is like this...

I have a gallon of gas that I am will to give you and I tell you that this is special gas. If you put this gallon in your tank, your car will run forever.

Now if you take the gallon and put it in your car then either your car runs forever or else I am a liar.

It is the same with John 6:51. That is some special bread. If you eat of it you will live forever. Or else God is a liar and you can chuck you Bible in the trash.

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[mistertwisty]

No offense taken, quite the opposite. I am glad you are willing to have this discussion.

Interesting verses you quoted, I will take the time to read through I Corrinthians with this thought in mind. (sadly I am at work and must wait until later to do so)

So in the John verse, you are suggesting that the "branches" that do not abide are the "works" that are spoken of in Corrinthians. Why then does Jesus say just 1 verse before:

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

surely He is not talking to the works.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

there is the "if" I am talking about. It seems to be conditional.

[Wildcat81]

I am asking because I am not able to find defining scripture that goes either way on this.

It seems to me that the problem is not so much Scripture that goes either way, as some passages that seem to go one way, and other passages that seem to go the other.

Being, as I am, a Wesleyan by education (my MA is from a theologically Wesleyan seminary), I'm pretty firmly of the camp that "You're not eternally secure until you're secure in eternity." I think that although there are several passages which seem to lend support to Perseverance (which is easier to type than "Once Saved Always Saved"), the preponderance of evidence seems to come down on the side of salvation being something that we take up (by God-given freedom), and can, if we choose, lay aside.

The problem with this issue is, as I said, that there are various passages that tend to support both sides, making it very easy for both sides to prooftext their way through a debate. And of course, prooftexting is a whole lot easier than doing the real, hard work of exegesis, so most people tend to prefer going that route.

[Wildcat81]

Just to play devil's advocate (as it were):


Now if you take the gallon and put it in your car then either your car runs forever or else I am a liar.

Or, the car runs until you drain the gas tank and take out the spark plugs.

[mistertwisty]

It seems to me that the problem is not so much Scripture that goes either way, as some passages that seem to go one way, and other passages that seem to go the other.

Being, as I am, a Wesleyan by education (my MA is from a theologically Wesleyan seminary), I'm pretty firmly of the camp that "You're not eternally secure until you're secure in eternity." I think that although there are several passages which seem to lend support to Perseverance (which is easier to type than "Once Saved Always Saved"), the preponderance of evidence seems to come down on the side of salvation being something that we take up (by God-given freedom), and can, if we choose, lay aside.

The problem with this issue is, as I said, that there are various passages that tend to support both sides, making it very easy for both sides to prooftext their way through a debate. And of course, prooftexting is a whole lot easier than doing the real, hard work of exegesis, so most people tend to prefer going that route.

Perhaps that is a better way to phrase it. So from your stance, what are relavent passages?

The hard work of exegesis has done more to confuse me at this point, so I am still sstuddying to show myself approved.