Tall Timbers
September 4th, 2008, 10:45 AM
Tall Timbers, good post! I always enjoy your posts because they are very well thought out and you offer a lot of wisdom but you've left me confused.
Maybe it wasn't such a good post, then, but thanks for your kindness. That beats getting clobbered over the head :badscore which occasionally happens after I post something that someone doesn't agree with.
I understand these things personally in regards to OSAS which I do have both feet in. For too many years I had a works based mindset of faith. And this is not easy for me because I "did so much for God" when all He wanted of me was complete surrender. There were many times in those years that I was tempted to walk away from it all - give it back so to speak or return the gift. Finally I broke down as God allowed much tribulation to come into my life so that I would finally choose either Him or the world. When I gave in to repentance and received the Holy Spirit, wow. Things are so different. No longer do I feel that I have anything to do for God but also the temptations to walk away or give back the gift are gone completely.
There is a strong case for OSAS in the Word but there is also a strong case for permanent apostasy (an abandonment of what one has believed in). God's Word does not contradict itself, so there is something that many of us, and certainly myself, are not seeing.
One of the most common verses applied to the possibility of Christian apostasy is found in Hebrews 6:4-8, "for it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. Ground that has absorbed the rain falling upon it repeatedly and brings forth crops useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is rejected; it will soon be cursed and finally burned." Here Paul was teaching a group of believers, presumably some who needed a bit of a kick start to get them walking the walk and drawing closer to Christ.
Why is this? Because according to Hebrews 10:39 I am "of those who believe to the saving of the soul" and "not of those who draw back to perdition". From Hebrews and other books of Scripture I understand that the only ones who can willfilly give back or return the gift are those who have never fully surrendered themselves to Christ but simply claimed to be Christians. There is such a big difference there. One can say the salvation prayer, even profess Christ and never receive salvation. I know because I was one of them. And when I was one of them I had the opportunity to "draw back" or take what I had received of the knowledge of truth and given back the gift because I never had it in the first place. Yes I had received the message but I had not received the Savior.
What you say here is very valuable thought, and quite possibly the solution to what appears to be a paradox in the Word but which cannot be. I'm very interested in what you say about saying the salvation prayer, even professing Christ, and not receiving salvation. God surely knows the hearts of men and when you said that prayer the first time, then proceeded to walk the walk, you weren't sincere (absence of faith) and therefore did not receive the miracle of rebirth. When you found your Savior, your eyes were opened and you knew!! and you also understood, I'm sure, the difference between that first faithless act and that which brought you into the arms of Jesus.
My feeling is that we need to be careful with Scripture because it refers often to those who have received the message and not the Savior when it refers to those who can so easily reject the gift as we see in Hebrews 10. And the kicker for me is this: not one who has received Christ fully has said they would give back the gift once having a taste of God's grace. That seems to me to say something right there. It is inconceivable because it can't happen.:hug
The verse I quoted above clearly refers to someone who has been enlightened (eyes opened, I would think), and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit (sounds downright pentecostal to me!) and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come (we believers are the ones fed by the word of God), and then fallen away... so while it is inconceivable to me and you say it won't happen, Hebrews in Ch 6 implies to me that it can and will.
But I cannot say that with certainty because I do not know the hearts of men. God does, so for now, anyway, I have to leave the last word to Him. In the meantime, I know that in places like the USA, where Christians aren't persecuted to a great degree (yet), that the church pews are full of pretenders. I understand that because here we have predominantly been a Christian nation that many are raised going to church at least once in a while and the pattern carries through to adulthood. Many develop the blind notion that if they live a mostly good life that they'll go to heaven because hell is reserved for the truly bad people... and of course, very few of us considers ourselves evil, we only see that in others.
It is possible that the very many places in the bible that discuss apostasy are referring to those who are not true believers, but I ask myself: how can someone be apostate from something they were only pretending or deceiving themselves or others about in the first place?
I don't pretend that when we true believers fall into sin that we're cut off right then and there from the branch. If that were the case, the only ones to inherit the Kingdom of God in this church age would be those who die immediately after surrendering their lives to Christ and repenting of their sins. I know from my own life that there are seasons where we seek Him earnestly and those where we are less earnest. There are times when we get caught up in sin that at least partially blinds us to Truth until we repent and turn away from that sin (evil). But through the seasons, as a result of our rebirth, we yearn for God with whom we have a personal relationship, even during those seasons when He seems far away. Yes apostasy is inconceivable to me, but the Word tells me it happens, and that the final results for the apostate soul is not good.
I once shared a personal experience I had with another believer about a man I knew who had developed over the years a wonderful ministry. The years have dimmed my memory about the ministry, but both this man and his wife worked their lives away, seemingly day and night, for Jesus. Quite abruptly, it seems, something changed in the man, and the part I was privy to, was that he left his wife, took up with another woman, left the ministry and started selling used cars (now I know that not all car salemen are evil :):):)). When I told this story to my very OSAS friend, he became visibly and verbally angry with me. I had included that it appeared to me that this might be an example of Hebrews 6:4-6 being fulfilled, but that since I didn't know the heart of this man, I had to leave that judgment to God, but that it appeared to me to be so.
In the end, God knows who is His and who is not. In the meantime, I will continue to scrutinize the Word and hopefully will come to understand some of these issues that I know that I and many don't quite have nailed down.
And I must continue to seek the Lord and endeavor to stay on that narrow path that leads to Life. Not to produce works to earn anything (which doesn't work), but because I love Jesus and want to live according to His Word. I want to be pleasing to Him in my every thought, word, and deed. I want to live for Him. It is about love, not works. It is for His love for us and ours for Him that draws us to produce, and certainly not for merit or personal gain, but because we are His, the Merciful One who died that we might have life and have it to the fullest.
Maybe it wasn't such a good post, then, but thanks for your kindness. That beats getting clobbered over the head :badscore which occasionally happens after I post something that someone doesn't agree with.
I understand these things personally in regards to OSAS which I do have both feet in. For too many years I had a works based mindset of faith. And this is not easy for me because I "did so much for God" when all He wanted of me was complete surrender. There were many times in those years that I was tempted to walk away from it all - give it back so to speak or return the gift. Finally I broke down as God allowed much tribulation to come into my life so that I would finally choose either Him or the world. When I gave in to repentance and received the Holy Spirit, wow. Things are so different. No longer do I feel that I have anything to do for God but also the temptations to walk away or give back the gift are gone completely.
There is a strong case for OSAS in the Word but there is also a strong case for permanent apostasy (an abandonment of what one has believed in). God's Word does not contradict itself, so there is something that many of us, and certainly myself, are not seeing.
One of the most common verses applied to the possibility of Christian apostasy is found in Hebrews 6:4-8, "for it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. Ground that has absorbed the rain falling upon it repeatedly and brings forth crops useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is rejected; it will soon be cursed and finally burned." Here Paul was teaching a group of believers, presumably some who needed a bit of a kick start to get them walking the walk and drawing closer to Christ.
Why is this? Because according to Hebrews 10:39 I am "of those who believe to the saving of the soul" and "not of those who draw back to perdition". From Hebrews and other books of Scripture I understand that the only ones who can willfilly give back or return the gift are those who have never fully surrendered themselves to Christ but simply claimed to be Christians. There is such a big difference there. One can say the salvation prayer, even profess Christ and never receive salvation. I know because I was one of them. And when I was one of them I had the opportunity to "draw back" or take what I had received of the knowledge of truth and given back the gift because I never had it in the first place. Yes I had received the message but I had not received the Savior.
What you say here is very valuable thought, and quite possibly the solution to what appears to be a paradox in the Word but which cannot be. I'm very interested in what you say about saying the salvation prayer, even professing Christ, and not receiving salvation. God surely knows the hearts of men and when you said that prayer the first time, then proceeded to walk the walk, you weren't sincere (absence of faith) and therefore did not receive the miracle of rebirth. When you found your Savior, your eyes were opened and you knew!! and you also understood, I'm sure, the difference between that first faithless act and that which brought you into the arms of Jesus.
My feeling is that we need to be careful with Scripture because it refers often to those who have received the message and not the Savior when it refers to those who can so easily reject the gift as we see in Hebrews 10. And the kicker for me is this: not one who has received Christ fully has said they would give back the gift once having a taste of God's grace. That seems to me to say something right there. It is inconceivable because it can't happen.:hug
The verse I quoted above clearly refers to someone who has been enlightened (eyes opened, I would think), and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit (sounds downright pentecostal to me!) and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come (we believers are the ones fed by the word of God), and then fallen away... so while it is inconceivable to me and you say it won't happen, Hebrews in Ch 6 implies to me that it can and will.
But I cannot say that with certainty because I do not know the hearts of men. God does, so for now, anyway, I have to leave the last word to Him. In the meantime, I know that in places like the USA, where Christians aren't persecuted to a great degree (yet), that the church pews are full of pretenders. I understand that because here we have predominantly been a Christian nation that many are raised going to church at least once in a while and the pattern carries through to adulthood. Many develop the blind notion that if they live a mostly good life that they'll go to heaven because hell is reserved for the truly bad people... and of course, very few of us considers ourselves evil, we only see that in others.
It is possible that the very many places in the bible that discuss apostasy are referring to those who are not true believers, but I ask myself: how can someone be apostate from something they were only pretending or deceiving themselves or others about in the first place?
I don't pretend that when we true believers fall into sin that we're cut off right then and there from the branch. If that were the case, the only ones to inherit the Kingdom of God in this church age would be those who die immediately after surrendering their lives to Christ and repenting of their sins. I know from my own life that there are seasons where we seek Him earnestly and those where we are less earnest. There are times when we get caught up in sin that at least partially blinds us to Truth until we repent and turn away from that sin (evil). But through the seasons, as a result of our rebirth, we yearn for God with whom we have a personal relationship, even during those seasons when He seems far away. Yes apostasy is inconceivable to me, but the Word tells me it happens, and that the final results for the apostate soul is not good.
I once shared a personal experience I had with another believer about a man I knew who had developed over the years a wonderful ministry. The years have dimmed my memory about the ministry, but both this man and his wife worked their lives away, seemingly day and night, for Jesus. Quite abruptly, it seems, something changed in the man, and the part I was privy to, was that he left his wife, took up with another woman, left the ministry and started selling used cars (now I know that not all car salemen are evil :):):)). When I told this story to my very OSAS friend, he became visibly and verbally angry with me. I had included that it appeared to me that this might be an example of Hebrews 6:4-6 being fulfilled, but that since I didn't know the heart of this man, I had to leave that judgment to God, but that it appeared to me to be so.
In the end, God knows who is His and who is not. In the meantime, I will continue to scrutinize the Word and hopefully will come to understand some of these issues that I know that I and many don't quite have nailed down.
And I must continue to seek the Lord and endeavor to stay on that narrow path that leads to Life. Not to produce works to earn anything (which doesn't work), but because I love Jesus and want to live according to His Word. I want to be pleasing to Him in my every thought, word, and deed. I want to live for Him. It is about love, not works. It is for His love for us and ours for Him that draws us to produce, and certainly not for merit or personal gain, but because we are His, the Merciful One who died that we might have life and have it to the fullest.