Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Sandra17012]

Dear Dear JadoreAdonai,
I just read a post you made in the past that literally broke my heart.
While God is the final judge in all matters, we know that not everyone who claims to be saved really is saved, please remember that.

I am adding you to my prayers dear Sister, I am for you not against you.

:bighug

[Paul M]

So what would a person have to do to become un-saved ? Murder? Adultery ? Both? Did David deserve to go to heaven after thr Uriah/Bathsheeba episode? David was saved by the same Jesus who saved me.The Jesus of the New Testament is the same Jesus of the Old Testament. The doctrine of OSAS is very important. I think it makes all the difference in whether you live a victorious peaceful Christian life or an uptight, joyless never quite sure life.

If you don't believe in OSAS then you HAVE to concede that if you commit certain acts you will be thrown out of the family of God. If you believe it can happen to others than you have to apply it to yourself as well. You are either going to never be secure in your salvation/ you might throw in the towel and give up if you wrestle with recurring sin/you might become very legalistic and bitter.

It's really absurd when you logically think about it. Jesus goes through all that he did,pays your sin debt in full,saves you-then one day he gets tired of you and cancels your salvation?

You are either saved or lost. There is no in between here. There are false christians, people who claim to be something and are not. This is not the issue though. If someone is genuinely born again-then it's forever baby. There are peaks and valleys in the christian life and it's great to know that He is there through all of it with you.

[Buzzardhut]

Personally I think regardless of scripture, it's as clear cut as simply knowing who Jesus was/is.

I disagree with once saved always saved. Because what I know, regardless of religion, and what I've seen, concerning religion, people can end up taking something/someone, for granted. In this case it's Jesus, His love, His forgiveness, and the laying down of His life, so that we may be redeemed.

I believe like with many things, a person can take what Jesus did, and at first believe it's wonderful, appreciate His sacrifice, and sincerely seek and attain their name in the book of life. Those same people can then believe since their name is in the book of life, it always will be, therefore no matter what they do, they're a sure in. They take for granted the sacrifice, the forgiveness.

People who are more carnal by nature than others, and who love things of the world more than God, I think more easily can slip back to old ways. They can become habitual sinners to the point of thinking "hey, as long as I say "Lord forgive me for my sin", and as long as I do good things, I'm OK." They lack true repentance. I believe one can genuinely feel sorry for doing something wrong, but at the same time, lack true repentance. Lots of people knowingly do bad things, and feel bad about it, but they shrug it off and keep going, chalking it up to 'just life'. I think it has to go further than simply feeling sorry for sin and asking the Lord to forgive. As far as I'm concerned, true repentance involves making restitution, making amends with anyone you've offended/hurt by your sin, and working your hardest to not continue committing that sin.

Now some people say "but then they weren't truly saved to begin with". I disagree. I know people who sincerely cried out to the Lord, and for a time, (and I'm talking years) for all intents and purposes, were living like a true Christian. But something happens (such as suffering great losses, like loved ones being stricken by illness and dying. Or losing someone to murder. There are modern day Jobs out there, and it has caused many of them to not just turn their backs on God, but to reject Him and the sacrifice. I've heard of such people ending up hating God with a passion, and cursing Him. Instead of realizing bad things are a part of life, they blame God, and hold it against Him. Bad things, and loving the world more than God, can cause people to revert back to a carnal way of living, and the longer one does so, the further away from Christ one gets, even if they still do some Godly things. For anyone to live carnally, with no real conviction, and yet still hold to the stance that they're saved because they said the sinners' prayer, and they do good deeds, is a slap in the face to Jesus. To me it's a form of mocking the Crucifixion, which to me is mocking God, and doesn't God say He wont be mocked?

I know it's hard living in this world. I know we all sin. Still, to me, there's a clear difference between those who truly do value their gift of Salvation, and show their appreciation, by striving to live righteously, emulating Jesus, being convicted of their sin, confessing it, repenting, making restitution, and amends. Then there are those who take it for granted and though they believe in Jesus, and in the beginning meant to live for Him, and though they may still do good deeds, somewhere along their walk, they fell off the straight and 'NARROW' path, and ended up back on the carnal one they were on before.

And for those needing bible verses, here are some.

Matthew 7:21-23 (King James Version)

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Some may say that applies to other people instead of saved people. Maybe. I believe it applies to the type of saved people I have referred to. Those who think simply believing in Jesus, as their Savior, and doing good deeds makes them saved and guaranteed into heaven.

----------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 13:1-7 (King James Version)

1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

In other translations, charity is changed to love, which is what I believe the bible means.

So to me, one can call their self a Christian and do all kinds of 'Godly' good things, but without love, and I believe it's true love the bible means, they are nothing. You gonna tell me that someone the bible refers to as 'nothing' is saved and going to heaven? I don't think so.
When you took your parents for granted did they disown you?
You think Jesus would do less?
Religions are systems of works, Christianity is entering God's covenant
The emphasis is on what Jesus did on the cross, not what we do
(and a saved life lives for Jesus, not for doing more bad)
Research the principles of blood covenant and you will understand eternal security
your argument emphasizes the works of man and belittles the work of Jesus Christ as our high priest

[JadoreAdonai]

Dear JadoreAdonai,

I have a few questions for you.

First, what is Salvation?

How can a person be saved?

What does the cross have to do with Salvation?

One of the Scriptures you used to make your point was this one:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is our Fathers will?


I will stop here. I would really appreciate your answers.

God Bless


Salvation at its basis, means being spared the final punishment of sin. It is because of the mercy of our Lord, and by the sacrifice of the son, Jesus Christ, through His Crucifixion, that those who believe in, and call upon Jesus to save them, they shall be saved.

I know what you're trying to imply with "what is the Father's will?"

I know of John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

I know alot of people on this board make Salvation seem as simple as just "believing on Him", and by doing so, it gives the impression that that's all is required to not just attain Salvation, but keep it. I will not join in that belief because I don't see it as being as simple as that, and to teach any unbeliever about Salvation in that way, to me, is misleading, and will keep many from the truth about being saved. There's more to salvation than just believing in Jesus and calling on Him to be your Savior. True salvation means conversion. I believe it's only as simple as calling out to Jesus to be saved, for people who are about to die, and who thus have no time to live a life of conversion, full of true repentance.

But for people who call on the name of Jesus, pledging their life to Him, yet day by day by day, til it's year upon year upon year, they continue walking with a carnal heart, taking for granted the atonement of Jesus, that's not right. They either were never saved, or they have the wrong idea of what it truly means to be saved, and thus to me, they end up losing their salvation, unless they realize that's not what it means to be Christian and thus repent, and change. Sadly, there are so many preachers out there teaching about heaven and hell, emphasising the greatness of heaven, compared to the horribleness of hell, and teaching people that if they want to be spared going to hell, ALL they have to do is believe in Jesus, and ask Him to be their Savior, and then voila, ticket to heaven. I have come across so many supposed Christians with that mentality thinking "yippee, I'm going to heaven, because I believe in Jesus, He's my Savior", yet they are just as sinful or even more so, then before they came to the Lord, because they were drawn in by a desire to escape going to hell, not because they realized what a wretched corrupt being they are and that they need their creator, they need Jesus, to help redeem them, and to purify them, to make them like Him, which is what God intended of us anyway. Jesus didn't die just to open the gates to heaven for anyone calling His number. His atonement for our sin, via His Crucifixion, meant that by not just believing in Him, but living for Him, we have the opportunity to become the righteous creations, made in God's image, that God intended from the beginning. Too many are squandering the gift, instead of seizing it, and truly placing their life in God's hands, and letting Him change them, mold them, into His likeness.

Ephesians 4:22-24 (New International Version)

22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

[JadoreAdonai]

I don't think I got it wrong, so I respectfully disagree with you. What you and others imply with your belief is that a person can carry the same carnal heart, and yet because they once called on the name of Jesus, they've got eternal heavenly security. That doesn't match with scripture as far as I've read, nor what I know of God, and while I'm no bible theologian, and by far not a saint, I have learned enough from the Holy Spirit, that simply saying "Lord save me" yet continuing to, (key word here) WILLFULLY live a life of sin, is indeed not just taking Jesus atonement for granted, it's mocking God.

There's a different between wanting to live for God, and striving to live for Him, changing your ways, becoming a new creation, and those who don't. That's what I keep referring to and I know I'm right, no matter how much I seem to either keep being misunderstood, or how right those with their differing views, feel they are.

And I am not trying to be snide or disrespectful. I just believe what I do strongly and I wont be swayed.

[BornAgain123]

I don't think I got it wrong, so I respectfully disagree with you. What you and others imply with your belief is that a person can carry the same carnal heart, and yet because they once called on the name of Jesus, they've got eternal heavenly security. That doesn't match with scripture as far as I've read, nor what I know of God, and while I'm no bible theologian, and by far not a saint, I have learned enough from the Holy Spirit, that simply saying "Lord save me" yet continuing to, (key word here) WILLFULLY live a life of sin, is indeed not just taking Jesus atonement for granted, it's mocking God.

There's a different between wanting to live for God, and striving to live for Him, changing your ways, becoming a new creation, and those who don't. That's what I keep referring to and I know I'm right, no matter how much I seem to either keep being misunderstood, or how right those with their differing views, feel they are.

And I am not trying to be snide or disrespectful. I just believe what I do strongly and I wont be swayed.

Billy Graham also brought up another good pt-he said that if someone was INTRODUCED to Christ at his deathbed, and repented/accepted Jesus as his/her savior, then that person is indeed saved. However-that someone was introduced to Christ at one point of his/her life, but WAITED UNTIL he/she got to her deathbed to repent, then that person is NOT saved.

Yes-for you to be saved, all, ALL elements have to work. Be sorrowful, repent, accept, believe in salvation, AND have a RELATIONSHIP with the Lord Jesus Christ from there on out.

The person who was introduced at his deathbed may not have had time to live out a relationship with Jesus, but nonetheless, repented properly. OTOH-the other person who WAITED until his deathbed all but took atonement for sin for GRANTED. Same with the person who repented, but subsequently lived out the life of carnal on the flesh.

It's alot like how 1/2 of marriages end in divorce-neither spouse really never got the message of what a relationship really was.

[JadoreAdonai]

So what would a person have to do to become un-saved ? Murder? Adultery ? Both? Did David deserve to go to heaven after thr Uriah/Bathsheeba episode? David was saved by the same Jesus who saved me.The Jesus of the New Testament is the same Jesus of the Old Testament. The doctrine of OSAS is very important. I think it makes all the difference in whether you live a victorious peaceful Christian life or an uptight, joyless never quite sure life.

I disagree, for many, OSAS, is a license to sin, willfully, habitually. They think it means because they said the sinner's prayer one time, even if meaning it at the time, that they have a lifetime, non revocable ticket to heaven, and thus they can screw up, not just as much as they want, but WITHOUT true repentance.


If you don't believe in OSAS then you HAVE to concede that if you commit certain acts you will be thrown out of the family of God. If you believe it can happen to others than you have to apply it to yourself as well. You are either going to never be secure in your salvation/ you might throw in the towel and give up if you wrestle with recurring sin/you might become very legalistic and bitter.

You like others seem to be misunderstanding me. I am NOT saying that because I don't believe in OSAS, that that means I'm saying either that there are some unpardonable sins, or that if you keep sinning after initially becoming saved, then you'll lose your salvation.

What I'm saying is that those who keep WILLFULLY sinning, WITHOUT true repentance, are the ones who are in danger of losing their salvation. Maybe you people haven't met people who claim to be Christian, they go to church, they tithe, they're charitable, they read the bible, they pray, for all outward appearances, they're Godly people. Yet, they also WILLFULLY keep doing things that are clearly sin, and they do it without remorse. Without admitting it's sin, and thus repenting of it. Do you know there are husbands out there who try to justify beating their wives to make them submit, because the bible says that wives are to submit to their husbands? They beat their wives and think not only is it not wrong, but that God condones them, that God orders them to do it!

The bible is clear that it's not simply good works that gets one to heaven, and nor is it simply saying one believes in Jesus, because even satan and the demons believe in Jesus, but we know they're fate.



You are either saved or lost. There is no in between here.

You err. There is an inbetween. It's called being lukewarm.

Revelation 3:16 Revelation 3:16 (King James Version)

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


If you still don't understand me, then I leave it up to God, because I'm done running in circles trying to explain myself, which I think I do pretty clearly.

Matthew 7:21-29.

[GreenEyedLady]

Did you know that a preacher man had 4500 saved in a year and did a study on this salvation. Only 1/2 of 1% of all gave evidence of being saved a year later? All 4500 people made a profession of faith. I think there are A LOT of people who think they are saved, who are NOT SAVED.

There is too much of this bow your head and say a prayer. Something is WRONG if there is no evidence of salvation.

[BornAgain123]

What I'm saying is that those who keep WILLFULLY sinning, WITHOUT true repentance, are the ones who are in danger of losing their salvation. Maybe you people haven't met people who claim to be Christian, they go to church, they tithe, they're charitable, they read the bible, they pray, for all outward appearances, they're Godly people. Yet, they also WILLFULLY keep doing things that are clearly sin, and they do it without remorse. Without admitting it's sin, and thus repenting of it. Do you know there are husbands out there who try to justify beating their wives to make them submit, because the bible says that wives are to submit to their husbands? They beat their wives and think not only is it not wrong, but that God condones them, that God orders them to do it!



Do you know who Bob Pierce is?(The former head of Samaritan's Purse, now runned by Franklin Graham)

In FG's "Rebel with a Cause", he talked about how how tempermental Pierce was. There was one time where a waitress at a restraurant didn't give his meal the way he wanted to, and he just blew a gasket at her.

Pierce had a tough life(his daughter committed suicide). The guy was a very good Christian, who helped witness Christ to many. When he would get angry, he never cursed the Lord's name in vain or anything. And for that matter, he repented almost every time.

But still-he had a lifelong tempermental problem. This is BAD, of course, b/c for someone who's going around evangalizing, it's almost as if he may be flushing his entire body of work down the toilet at the same time. I mean what will unbelievers(and others who are on the "tip" side) subsequently feel?

What do you think of this?

[Buzzardhut]

I disagree, for many, OSAS, is a license to sin, willfully, habitually. This is a ridiculous argument pagans use because they can't understand the life transformation which takes place at salvation.
No one gets saved so they can go out and sin.
I have met lots of catholics that excuse their sin saying they can go to confession on Saturday


A false conversion is just that, it's a false conversion
and it does not count as losing salvation because it never was attained in the first place