Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Sandra17012]

Good work Sandra

Wow, thank you, you just made my day!:):):)

Thank you so much for considering what I had to say with a loving heart....a true display of "good fruit" if I might add:thumb

God Bless You

[Paul M]

Quote -You err. There is an inbetween. It's called being lukewarm.

Revelation 3:16 Revelation 3:16 (King James Version)

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


If you still don't understand me, then I leave it up to God, because I'm done running in circles trying to explain myself, which I think I do pretty clearly


Uh, no. Lukewarm is unsaved. Notice what Jesus does with the lukewarm, he spits them out . The Ladocian church was/is lost.



You didn't address my question. Why is David in heaven? and what sin do you need to commit to become unsaved?

[Anddra]

Oh, by the way, I forgot something!

You'll notice a confirmation about Apostates having never been saved in this Scripture:

American King James Version
And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

If they had ever been born again the Lord would have known them, and He can't lie!

:thumb :nod :agree

As Tall Timbers said, "when He says He never knew them, He NEVER knew them"

[GreenEyedLady]

I think we should go a little deeper with this seed parable.
Jesus defines what the seed is here.

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.

Right here, Christ states that fruit MUST be present. IF there is no fruit (evidence of salvation) they did not let the word sink into their heart. They most likely confessed with their mouth, but did not believe in their heart. Some might have "believed" that Jesus raised from the death as vs 13 says, but they never made him master of their life. They never allowed Christ to lead in their life. This is how the root dies I believe. The word of God cannot be watered because there is no root. There is something preventing them from accepting Christ all the way. This also proves that because there is no root, there can't be any life. Meaning, if there is no life, no growth, that person can't be saved because there is nothing living inside of them. Same goes for vs 14. They all hear the Word of God but they don't allow it to settle in their heart. Salvation is a heart condition and most people show their heart on their outward appearance.

Just thought I would add a litttle of my thoughts regarding the end of the chapter.

GEL:hat

[Bound2Him]

I realize the difference in points in history and the opinions of Christian perspective have, and can change over the centuries. Especially over the matter of "Once saved always saved". I read in book of Romans just last night:


You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. (Romans 11:19-22)

"Natural branches" being Israel, and "Grafted branches" being the Gentiles who would believe.

If the "Natural branches" could be cut off(perish). Are we who are "Grafted branches" also perish if we fall away? Since we were also "Grafted" onto the tree?


John Bunyan wrote about a man who once "knew the truth" and who once "tasted the heavenly gift". Was he wrong?

So he took him by the hand again, and led him into a very dark room, where there sat a man in an iron cage.

Now the man, to look on, seemed very sad; he sat with his eyes looking down to the ground, his hands folded together, and he sighed as if he would break his heart. Then said Christian, What means this? At which the Interpreter bid him talk with the man.

Then said Christian to the man, What art thou? The man answered, I am what I was not once.

Chr. What wast thou once?

Man. The man said, I was once a fair and flourishing professor, both in mine own eyes, and also in the eyes of others; I once was, as I thought, fair for the Celestial City, and had then even joy at the thoughts that I should get thither.

Chr. Well, but what art thou now? Man. I am now a man of despair, and am shut up in it, as in this iron cage. I cannot get out. Oh, now I cannot!

Chr. But how camest thou in this condition?

Man. I left off to watch and be sober. I laid the reins, upon the neck of my lusts; I sinned against the light of the Word and the goodness of God; I have grieved the Spirit, and he is gone; I tempted the devil, and he is come to me; I have provoked God to anger, and he has left me: I have so hardened my heart, that I cannot repent.

Then said Christian to the Interpreter, But is there no hope for such a man as this? Ask him, said the Interpreter. Nay, said Christian, pray, Sir, do you.

Inter. Then said the Interpreter, Is there no hope, but you must be kept in the iron cage of despair?

Man. No, none at all.

Inter. Why, the Son of the Blessed is very pitiful.

Man. I have crucified him to myself afresh; I have despised his person; I have despised his righteousness; I have counted his blood an unholy thing; I have done despite to the Spirit of grace. Therefore I have shut myself out of all the promises, and there now remains to me nothing but threatenings, dreadful threatenings, fearful threatenings, of certain judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour me as an adversary.

Inter. For what did you bring yourself into this condition?

Man. For the lusts, pleasures, and profits of this world; in the enjoyment of which I did then promise myself much delight; but now every one of those things also bite me, and gnaw me like a burning worm.

Inter. But canst thou not now repent and turn?

Man. God hath denied me repentance. His Word gives me no encouragement to believe; yea, himself hath shut me up in this iron cage; nor can all the men in the world let me out. O eternity, eternity! how shall I grapple with the misery that I must meet with in eternity!

Inter. Then said the Interpreter to Christian, Let this man's misery be remembered by thee, and be an everlasting caution to thee.


Ive always read this part and thought "how can a man sin himself beyond repentance?" Can God really deny a man repentance?

I always compare myself to this man in the cage and get freaked out sometimes. lol

What do you think?

[Paul M]

Well how much fruit did the thief on the cross exhibit? There was an acknowledgement of Christ's righteousness, he admitted he was deserving of the punishment he was getting .He asked jesus to remember him, Jesus said

"Today (Present tense) you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). This thief was neither baptized nor partook of the Lords supper he believed and was promised to be with Jesus.

He did no works but only believed. This is hard to accept for those who add requirements to be saved or busy themselves to earn their way to heavens abode.

[TimothyK]

“For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.” - John 6:38-40

John Bunyan is wrong. :nod

Or he's describing a very emotional and stubborn false convert unwilling to give up his sinful lifestyle and repent? :idunno

At the point of true repentance comes the salvation afforded to us by Jesus Christ. Once you are saved, you are given over to the Son by the Heavenly Father. It's irreversible. If it could be reversed, the Bible would fall a part at the seams, God would be made a liar, and our faith would be worthless. Seeing as that isn't the case, we're saved by the faith we have in our Lord Jesus Christ and that is that. There's nothing anyone or anything, including yourself, can do to escape or get out of your salvation. You can fall out of fellowship by allowing your sinful nature priority over the spirit, which can lead to a very troubled and defeated life here on earth, being at the mercy of the devil and his hordes. You can run a poor race and lose treasure, crowns, and eternal standing in Heaven. You'll have to live with your poor choices and Heavenly standing for all eternity, not to mention you would have to explain yourself to our Savior at the Bema Seat. You may have to escape a Holy Fire empty handed and singed. If you were a poor witness, you might not be mentioned very much in Heaven to the Heavenly Host. All of this if you were the worst possible Christian you could be. And it is very profound, and the consequences are eternal.

But you cannot nullify your salvation all together. You will be saved if you are a true believer. Though I have to say, if someone were "trying" to be the worst Christian possible, I personally would have my doubts about that person being saved at all. But it's not my place to judge that. People trying to get to Heaven on legalism will be very disappointed though. Likewise they too will have to deal with eternal consequences... :tsk

But to be even the least in Heaven, is many times better then our life here on Earth and infinitely better then the fate of those who have refused salvation. :fear

:hug

In kindness, with warm regards
- TimothyK

[sojourner52]

are works fruit? or evidence of fruit?

Gal. 5:

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance:

[Sandra17012]

I can understand why people say there must be fruit displayed. I have spent some time this evening thinking about this very subject.

The problem is that it is hard to define "fruit".

I have known atheists who are very nice people, who show concern for others and do good works.

My husband has JW's in his extended family, and I have Mormons in my extended family. These people are all about living "righteous" lives and performing good works. If we were to judge their "fruit" against many Christians I know, the JW's and Mormons would appear much more righteous. Catholics are the same. These people are all trying to work their way into heaven by being "righteous" and doing good works. I don't mean to downplay their good deeds, I think theirs should be appreciated like anyone else's......but, the good deeds don't get them anywhere as far as Salvation is concerned.

As righteous as someone might strive to be, they are just spinning their wheels without Christ:
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness"

Of course we know the Scripture, "Faith without works is dead." In the same book, James also said, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

We are saved by our faith.

If we are truly born again then we should display good works as a natural result, not because we are trying to earn our way, but because God's Spirit is in us......but....

What if Jesus were to return while someone who is truly born again is in "backslide mode?" Would they be left behind? NO, because they are covered with the Righteousness of Christ. The moment we are born again we are sealed with The Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. God seals and "keeps" His Own.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

It stands to reason that good works will bring rewards. I think our motivation is more important than the actual deeds. If we do good deeds from a heart of selfless love, these are the deeds which build our treasures in heaven.

You'll notice though that we have bad deeds too, and these don't exclude us from the judgement seat of Christ. This judgement is only for those who are saved, and are a part of the body of Christ.

God is the only one who knows our hearts and our motivations.

I don't deserve Salvation!!!! It is only by the Grace of God that I am saved.

Paul M, you are so right about the thief, he did no works but only believed. It is so hard for fallen human nature to deal with this fact.

If a person is truly born again, what works should they display, what is the fruit of Salvation that we can recognize? A Closer look at attitude can sometimes be enlightening.

I have noticed that many (not all) faith+works people seem to believe they are better than others because of their good works. They often times demand behavior from others that they can't even live up to themselves, but they don't see it. It sounds righteous to demand righteousness.

People who believe in Grace alone through faith alone don't seem to have this pride in themselves, but instead are just grateful for their Salvation.

Should we do good works? OF COURSE, should we attempt to live righteous lives? OF COURSE, but we should not make it a criteria to judge someone's Salvation.

This is my opinion on the matter.

[Sandra17012]

are works fruit? or evidence of fruit?

Gal. 5:

Oh man, I wish I would have included this in my post!:)