Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[HiHopes]

“He may have felt some remorse born of fear which caused him to return the money to the Pharisees, but he never repented…”
Not an accurate statement-
Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself…

Note Judas recognized Jesus for Who He was that same evening, even before the questioning of Jesus, and 3 days before Jesus arose from the dead, proving His person. If Judas was the un-Believer alleged, then how is it he was so distressed as to commit suicide before Jesus ever proved to him the magnitude of his error? Only the resurrection proved Who Jesus was to the un-Believer, and verified Who He was to the Believer, yet Judas was convinced enough 3 days before undeniable proof to commit suicide.

Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot…
which presumes Satan was not in Judas prior to that… so Who was?

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell...
fell... fell from what? salvation perhaps?


I’m not seeing how some, in their enthusiasm to protect their eternal security belief, can use these passages as authority that Judas ‘was never saved in the first place’…

[NowAlive]

“He may have felt some remorse born of fear which caused him to return the money to the Pharisees, but he never repented…”
Not an accurate statement-
Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself…

Note Judas recognized Jesus for Who He was that same evening, even before the questioning of Jesus, and 3 days before Jesus arose from the dead, proving His person. If Judas was the un-Believer alleged, then how is it he was so distressed as to commit suicide before Jesus ever proved to him the magnitude of his error? Only the resurrection proved Who Jesus was to the un-Believer, and verified Who He was to the Believer, yet Judas was convinced enough 3 days before undeniable proof to commit suicide.

Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot…
which presumes Satan was not in Judas prior to that… so Who was?

I’m not seeing how some, in their enthusiasm to protect their eternal security belief, can use this Scripture as authority that Judas ‘was never saved in the first place’…

"repented himself" does not necessarily mean saving himself. In reviewing this verse in Barnes Bible Notes it speaks to it saying if it was saving repentance he (Judas) would have been led to a more holy life. He certainly had time to bring himself to the very feet of Jesus and confess and seek His forgiveness for this act. Jesus would most certainly have forgiven Judas for his sins (As spoken of in Barnes). Yet instead Judas went away in despair and hanged himself. This act alone speaks to Judas not having repented in the way which we commonly use it for gaining forgiveness.

3 Then he who had betrayed Him, seeing that He was condemned, sorrowing, Judas returned the thirty pieces of silver again to the chief priests and elders,
4 saying, I have sinned, betraying innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? You see to that.
5 And he threw the pieces of silver down in the temple and departed. And he went and hanged himself.
(Matthew 27:3-5)

[HiHopes]

"...This act alone speaks to Judas not having repented in the way which we commonly use it for gaining forgiveness."

Or speaks of someone who has 'fallen' (Act 1:25), who suddenly perceives the magnitude of what he just did to the Son of G-D, and who can't be renewed to repentance...
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,… if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance…

[NowAlive]

"...This act alone speaks to Judas not having repented in the way which we commonly use it for gaining forgiveness."

Or speaks of someone who has 'fallen' (Act 1:25), who suddenly perceives the magnitude of what he just did to the Son of G-D, and who can't be renewed to repentance...
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,… if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance…

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

which you left off of that part of verse. When did the apostles receive the Holy Spirit? We can look to John 20:19-22 for the answer.

So if Judas had not received the Holy Spirit then Hebrews 6:4-6 would not have applied to Judas.

[HiHopes]

In the following passages Jesus is speaking of all His Disciples, including Judas-

Joh 17:6-12 I have manifested thy name unto the men (Disciples) which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word…. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee… I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me… I pray for… them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. … I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I believe those verses say all the Disciples were enlightened, but Judas fell

[Sassy Granny]

authority[/I] that Judas ‘was never saved in the first place’…

Hi there HiHopes ...

The conclusion you draw here is not accurate, any more than it would be prudent of me to say to you: I'm not seeing how some, in their enthusiasm to protect their salvation-by-works doctrine, can use these passages as authority ..... etc. "

The position I posted above has nothing to do with my belief in eternal security. It has everything to do with what Jesus Himself and the scriptures have to say about Judas.

God bless you,

Kathleen

[Sandra17012]

Dear HiHopes,
I can't understand how you believe the "son of perdition" could have ever been saved.

per·di·tion (pr-dshn)
n.
1.
a. Loss of the soul; eternal damnation.
b. Hell: "Him the Almighty Power/Hurl'd headlong . . . /To bottomless perdition, there to dwell" John Milton.
2. Archaic Utter ruin.

Jesus said it was the Fathers Will that He lost none of those whom The Father gave Him.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


In every Gospel account Judas was the Lord’s betrayer.
In John 6:70. the Lord said this: 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 13:27, 27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

1. Judas was the Lord's betrayer.
2. Jesus called him a devil.
3. Satan entered Judas after The Last Supper.

Satan would not be allowed to enter into a true believer.


"That Man of Sin be revealed, the Son of Perdition"

There are only two places in the Bible where the title "Son Of Perdition" is used. One is of Judas, and the other is spoken by Paul, referring to the Antichrist.

It could not be more clear that Judas was a false disciple, of the spirit of the antichrist.

[sojourner52]

we are assuming that salvation is an event, not a process.

Heb 5:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

what about the letters to the seven churches? each one contains a promise "to him that overcometh"

Paul says in 1 cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

and at the end of his life, just before his execution -

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

what about the parables of the seed and the sower?

not every seed brought forth fruit. some germinated but died when the sun got too hot or it was choked out by weeds.

I think claiming that we are "saved" just because one day we made a decision is risky.

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

we are sealed by the Holy Spirit - we are not saved by works, but by the Grace of God.

but dont we have to be faithful to the end? if we really believe arent we purifying ourselves, continually putting to death the works of the flesh? if we turn away from following Him, isnt that "falling away?"

that's what it sounds like.

[Anddra]

In the following passages Jesus is speaking of all His Disciples, including Judas-

Joh 17:6-12 I have manifested thy name unto the men (Disciples) which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word…. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee… I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me… I pray for… them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. … I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I believe those verses say all the Disciples were enlightened, but Judas fell

Actually, in that passage, Jesus is speaking of those whom the Father had given Him out of the world. That Judas is included in that category is an assumption.

[Sassy Granny]

we are assuming that salvation is an event, not a process....

but dont we have to be faithful to the end? if we really believe arent we purifying ourselves, continually putting to death the works of the flesh? if we turn away from following Him, isnt that "falling away?"

that's what it sounds like.

Salvation actually is an event; one with eternal consequences. Sanctification, however, is a lifelong process.

Also, once saved our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. We thus become His, and even the "keeping" of us is His work.

There's absolutely nothing in which we can boast except, of course, the cross!

Kathleen