Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[HeIsEnough]

2 Peter 2:20-21 (New International Version)

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

I'm struggling with how to interpret this. Is there any hope for the person described in these verses?

Perhaps ensuring this scripture is fully met in you firstly, would be important.



2 Peter 2

False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-30489a)] putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-30494c)] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-30495d)] and despise authority.


Bold and arrogant, these men are [B]not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.


13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-30498e)] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.


17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-30507f)]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."So if these words are a description of your life, even so much as you have been considered a teacher of the Lords things in this world...at some point, then perhaps they can apply to you.

The most important portion is the teaching portion, in that their own behavior, attitudes and actions show more clearly how and why their teachings are destructive heresies. Not only that, they do it willingly, knowingly, and in secret so as to entrap others. These are not a nice bunch, and were prophesied that they would do these things.

I think it is clear that few here actually fit this description, they are a specific breed of man. But can the end condition of these persons be similar to an everyday believer? I think we again must look at what we do to apply the condition. If you have done these things, then they fit. In that sense, it is difficult for me to see how it could unless you fulfill the action and heart condition as well.

[Chicken5516]

Yes, I guess I know all this, but I just fear that I have "messed up" my future by things I did as a Christian (stopped going to church, became bitter, got angry at God, got divorced- although that was beyond my control since he divorced me, argued with my mother even as an adult Christian, etc... things that I did that were "unthinkable" to me at one time when my faith was strong).

I know I'm forgiven, but I fear that I have ruined my testimony, mostly with my family (who are unsaved), and also I fear that I will never again marry or have children or be a strong, vibrant Christian. I have wasted several years of my life, and my youth, and unfortunately, now I have to keep pressing on but I don't have a strong testimony anymore. And those verses from Peter seem to confirm that maybe there is "suffering" of loss for me because of how it "it would've been better for them not to have know it."

Like with my family... I truly believe it would've been better had I not been a Christian, then got divorced and did all the other things, and then now became a Christian so they could see a change. But instead they just see someone who calls herself a Christian, but yet has done things that they look down on me for or hold over me (mostly my sister who is almost like an athiest). In many ways, I've just shown them that my Christianity is not powerful at all. Both me and my husband were Christians, yet we got divorced just like a nonChristian. And I just feel like I am really not that much different than the world. I feel like I quenched the Holy Spirit, and don't know how to get back what I've lost (my testimony, my strong faith, my sense of peace that comes from not having sinned... but now I have regrets and loss).


Your testimony is not ruined. :) What will help with your testimony is that you can tell friends and family that God is faithful and He never left you, that you fell short. That God's Grace welcomed you back as a Prodical Son. He was always there proding and probing.

Get right with God, and show your friends and family through your actions and your everyday life. I feel that you are so worried about what people will think of you, that you are afraid to just jump back in. The fact that you are here shows that you want to get right with the Lord.

Remember, no one is perfect. Lots of folks fall short and walk away or turn away from Jesus. But because Jesus loves you, he will welcome you back with open arms. Don't be afraid and don't worry about what others think. You might be surprised at what happens.

By returning to the Lord, you WILL show how mighty God is. You will show them that God is a forgiving God and that he loves us no matter what.

But I would just be silent for awhile. I would get right with God, and start living the way you know you should live. People will see and then you can start talking to them about God again. They will see how you have returned to being happy and whole, and they will want to know why.

I will continue to pray and think about you. I have gone through this same type of thing many times, so I know how you feel. But you have got to do this for yourself first. Get strong with God again and the rest will work itself out. :hug

[iSong6:3]

Yes, the mental picture for battling the flesh is wrestling...as in greco-Roman wrestling; it's sweating and grappling, struggling...exhausting sometimes. Which is why we still must live by faith, and rely on the Holy Spirit to help us out, even when we get thrown to the mat.

:thumb I just read this article by Jack Kinsella, "Proof Text Without Context is Pretext". It blessed me and I wanted to share it with my RR family - this seems like the perfect spot.

Here's a snippet:

"In context, Paul has just exhaustively argued in Romans 7 in favor of eternal security, explaining the dual nature of man, how often we fall short, how we do what we hate while knowing it is wrong, all the time hating ourselves for sinning.

"Paul says, 'Now then it is not more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me....For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.'

"Having explained the exact nature of the conflict with the old man experienced by every Christian, Paul cries out in despair, 'O wretched man that I am, Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?' before answering his own question and confirming that sin is a continuing part of a saved Christian's earthly existence:

"'I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.'

"In context, Romans 7 teaches that the struggle with sin is evidence one IS walking after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 is the promise that there is no condemnation for such a one who struggles with sin."

Another snippet:

"The Apostle Paul knew he couldn't be trusted with his salvation. Romans 7 is a litany of spiritual failures. Without some sense of eternal security, the Christian life would be a fearful, nervous existence, where one was never sure where he stood with the Lord.

"If one can sin one's way out of salvation, which sin is it? Having a TV? Smoking? Cheating on taxes? Having a lustful thought? Road rage? Divorce?

"Instead, the Lord says, 'Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.' (Matthew 11:29-30)

"That sounds like a promise I can trust."

Whole article - http://omegaletter.com/articles/print.asp?ArticleID=6521

[tank]

O.k. I have a question for those of you who dont believe there's a such thing as backsliding or you cant lose your salvation.Lets use this set up :Joe came to Christ age 21 for the past 3 yrs Joe has walked in the ways of the lord.Now Joe is 27yrs old and he's went back to being the party animal he was durning his high school and college days.Joe's drinking,fornicating,lying,and cheating several times members of Joe family who are christians has tried talking to him ,but Joe tells them once saved always saved.Joe's last act on this earth was a sexual encounter with a female friend and minutes after the act he gets in his car dies in a car accident where does he go?Does he end up in heaven, because you can never lose your salvation just rewards. Or did he die in his sin(went to hell and the lake of fire)?I'd like to hear a few thoughts on this.

[tank]

Yes, I guess I know all this, but I just fear that I have "messed up" my future by things I did as a Christian (stopped going to church, became bitter, got angry at God, got divorced- although that was beyond my control since he divorced me, argued with my mother even as an adult Christian, etc... things that I did that were "unthinkable" to me at one time when my faith was strong).

I know I'm forgiven, but I fear that I have ruined my testimony, mostly with my family (who are unsaved), and also I fear that I will never again marry or have children or be a strong, vibrant Christian. I have wasted several years of my life, and my youth, and unfortunately, now I have to keep pressing on but I don't have a strong testimony anymore. And those verses from Peter seem to confirm that maybe there is "suffering" of loss for me because of how it "it would've been better for them not to have know it."

Like with my family... I truly believe it would've been better had I not been a Christian, then got divorced and did all the other things, and then now became a Christian so they could see a change. But instead they just see someone who calls herself a Christian, but yet has done things that they look down on me for or hold over me (mostly my sister who is almost like an athiest). In many ways, I've just shown them that my Christianity is not powerful at all. Both me and my husband were Christians, yet we got divorced just like a nonChristian. And I just feel like I am really not that much different than the world. I feel like I quenched the Holy Spirit, and don't know how to get back what I've lost (my testimony, my strong faith, my sense of peace that comes from not having sinned... but now I have regrets and loss).

I felt your words in this post and im merely a man I know God has truly forgiven you now you must forgive yourself.We all make mistakes as we walk this walk of faith if its meant for you to reach certain members in your family then God will lift you up in their eyes.One plants,one waters and God gives the increase.You can start to get back your faith by surrounding yourself with strong brothers and sisters in the lord.Prayer,fasting,and reading the word daily will also help.Its wasnt your christianity that wasnt strong enough it was your humanity you've lived and learned from that experience. You do have a strong testamony to anyone who's stuggling with what you've been thru you can help them not go down the same path.

[Kliska]

O.k. I have a question for those of you who dont believe there's a such thing as backsliding or you cant lose your salvation.Lets use this set up :Joe came to Christ age 21 for the past 3 yrs Joe has walked in the ways of the lord.Now Joe is 27yrs old and he's went back to being the party animal he was durning his high school and college days.Joe's drinking,fornicating,lying,and cheating several times members of Joe family who are christians has tried talking to him ,but Joe tells them once saved always saved.Joe's last act on this earth was a sexual encounter with a female friend and minutes after the act he gets in his car dies in a car accident where does he go?Does he end up in heaven, because you can never lose your salvation just rewards. Or did he die in his sin(went to hell and the lake of fire)?I'd like to hear a few thoughts on this.

Everything you've referenced here are works. Works don't save you, and IF you can lose your salvation it will not hinge on works. Does Joe believe OSAS when he tells them that? If so, he still is putting his faith in Christ. This is one problem with some of the church's teaching...some preachers act like you are indeed saved by faith, but you have to walk worthy. Nope. You are saved by faith and are to live by faith.

Now, I wouldn't expect a Spirit filled believer to continue claiming God's grace and act the way you describe "Joe" but I can see where it could be theoretically possible.

[Ashleigh]

Perhaps ensuring this scripture is fully met in you firstly, would be important.

So if these words are a description of your life, even so much as you have been considered a teacher of the Lords things in this world...at some point, then perhaps they can apply to you.

The most important portion is the teaching portion, in that their own behavior, attitudes and actions show more clearly how and why their teachings are destructive heresies. Not only that, they do it willingly, knowingly, and in secret so as to entrap others. These are not a nice bunch, and were prophesied that they would do these things.

I think it is clear that few here actually fit this description, they are a specific breed of man. But can the end condition of these persons be similar to an everyday believer? I think we again must look at what we do to apply the condition. If you have done these things, then they fit. In that sense, it is difficult for me to see how it could unless you fulfill the action and heart condition as well.

Well, I've read my Bible many, many times, including these verses and 2 Peter, but I just went and read the entire chapter to see the verses in context. It sounds actually like 2 Peter 2:20-21 is maybe not referring to someone who is saved, but rather to someone who has heard the truth but then rejected it. But I'm not sure, but I don't see how someone described in all the previous verses of 2 Peter 2 could be a true Christian.

I have a Life Application Bible and it says this: "Peter is speaking of a person who has learned about Christ and how to be saved; and has even been positively influenced by Christians, but then rejects the truth and returns to his or her sin. This person is worse off than before, because he or she has rejected the only way out of sin, the only way of salvation. Like a person sinking in quicksand who refuses to grab the rope thrown to him or her, the one who turns away from Christ casts aside his or her only means of escape."

The above verses definitely do not apply to me. I've never delighted in any of my sins nor is my "idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight." So, does 2 Peter 2:20-22 apply to these people? Are they actually even Christians? Do these verses apply to Christians or to non-Christians who've heard or know the truth but then reject it? Is that kind of what you are getting at?

[Ashleigh]

Your testimony is not ruined. :) What will help with your testimony is that you can tell friends and family that God is faithful and He never left you, that you fell short. That God's Grace welcomed you back as a Prodical Son. He was always there proding and probing.

Get right with God, and show your friends and family through your actions and your everyday life. I feel that you are so worried about what people will think of you, that you are afraid to just jump back in. The fact that you are here shows that you want to get right with the Lord.

Remember, no one is perfect. Lots of folks fall short and walk away or turn away from Jesus. But because Jesus loves you, he will welcome you back with open arms. Don't be afraid and don't worry about what others think. You might be surprised at what happens.

By returning to the Lord, you WILL show how mighty God is. You will show them that God is a forgiving God and that he loves us no matter what.

But I would just be silent for awhile. I would get right with God, and start living the way you know you should live. People will see and then you can start talking to them about God again. They will see how you have returned to being happy and whole, and they will want to know why.

I will continue to pray and think about you. I have gone through this same type of thing many times, so I know how you feel. But you have got to do this for yourself first. Get strong with God again and the rest will work itself out. :hug

Thanks for the encouragement. I actually never really fully "left" the Lord, but rather allowed things into my life that hindered and hurt my walk with the Lord, and ultimately my testimony. Well, my heart has never "left" him, but yet I did in some ways "leave" as far as not obeying his commands, not trusting Him, and by being a friend to the world in certain ways.

I feel most like I can relate to Peter who loved the Lord so much but then rejected him those 3 times and then he wept... or like Paul who lamented about how he does the things he doesn't want to do... or even like the Prodigal Son, who I'm sure loved his father all the time he was gone, but yet, he did his own thing and in the end felt ashamed and was broken. I never felt that story related to me at all, but now I see how it does.

I think the saddest thing for me is that I once was a very strong Christian, but I was also much younger, and then as I got older and experienced some real difficulties of life, that's when I either compromised in certain things or sinned by either being angry or bitter or envious or not waiting on the Lord or just plain neglecting my relationship with God (not reading my Bible or praying or in church). Things that made me feel like "How can you call yourself a Christian?"

I guess I just wish I had been more steadfast and obedient... like Esther or Joseph, or like Christians I know who've never "strayed."

I think I am somewhat worried what others will think, but I am also fearful... afraid of failing. But I have been trying to get my life right. Actually, I think I've always tried, even when I was struggling so much. I don't think there's ever been a day in my life that I don't think of God, and during the times I was either sinning or struggling, I was always also very miserable inside... always knowing or feeling the consequences of my choices, always seeking God's forgiveness but then failing again.

But, yes, God can give me a testimony to help other Christians whov'e struggled. I used to be the "perfect" Christian... really... in other's eyes, I was a very "good" Christian, and I never thought I would ever struggle like I have in my faith... but I also put pride in my "goodness" and in the things I hadn't done (sins). I used to think: "I would never do that!" And then sure enough, years later, I did those very things that I had once thought unthinkable. So I guess I also learned a lesson.

But, anyways, thanks for your prayers. :)

[Ashleigh]

I felt your words in this post and im merely a man I know God has truly forgiven you now you must forgive yourself.We all make mistakes as we walk this walk of faith if its meant for you to reach certain members in your family then God will lift you up in their eyes.One plants,one waters and God gives the increase.You can start to get back your faith by surrounding yourself with strong brothers and sisters in the lord.Prayer,fasting,and reading the word daily will also help.Its wasnt your christianity that wasnt strong enough it was your humanity you've lived and learned from that experience. You do have a strong testamony to anyone who's stuggling with what you've been thru you can help them not go down the same path.

Thanks. :) Those are good words. I know God has forgiven me too... I guess it's just hard to really walk in it.

[HeIsEnough]

The above verses definitely do not apply to me. I've never delighted in any of my sins nor is my "idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight." So, does 2 Peter 2:20-22 apply to these people? Are they actually even Christians? Do these verses apply to Christians or to non-Christians who've heard or know the truth but then reject it? Is that kind of what you are getting at?

I was getting at whether those verses applied to you, for you to judge for yourself. The context is relating to those who knowingly are wrong, and lead others to be wrong, like they are. These are some really bad people, Ashleigh. Taking advantage of the brethren and corrupting others as they go. I'm having a difficult time thinking these specific ones would apply to you. :hug