View Full Version : Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?
June 2nd, 2009, 11:54 AM
What my concern is, is that you are directing people to a site that has false doctrine and it could not only confuse people, but it's not in line with what this site believes. I don't understand why you would do that - lead people to something you know this board is not in favor of. You may believe in a false doctrine, but I think it's only respectful to not try to influence others in that direction when you are a member here.
I'm not going to get into a debate - I don't wish to, but I just wanted to clarify what was on that site so people don't go there.
I am not going to get into a debate either. I do not believe that OSAS. sorry. I will stand by scripture.
I TIM 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils
June 2nd, 2009, 11:57 AM
The Bible says some shall depart from the faith. depart=leave. So they WERE saved but they leave the faith.
You are saying that they are saved?? So then I might as well go drink and party and drug and fornicate right now and quit praying and praising and walking in the light because hey, I will still be saved!! ??? Color me confused.
The following may help with both your question and WarriorOfTheFather's. I would like to help, but I don't like to argue. If you don't accept the Doctrine of OSAS, then you are free to not believe. As said before, I was just very surprised that you directed others to a website for "clarification" when you knew that site was not in line with the Doctrinal Statement provided here. I don't want to come off as "preachy," but this forum is to ask questions if you're looking for help or answers. It's not here for you, or anybody else, to convert others to a false belief by sending them to alternative websites. In fact, that site you referred others to is outright calling God a liar. Very insulting! The reason I thought you both weren't serious or mistaken at first is because I noticed you weren't new members. Back-to-back, it just threw me. So, with all due respect, I hope the following answer from Jack Kelley will prove to be useful in answering your questions.
I guess you believe that we can reject our salvation after receiving it by not striving to live a “holy” life. What do you do with clear statements that the Holy Spirit is sealed inside every believer at the moment of belief as God’s guarantee of our inheritance, as it says in Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Cor 1:21-22, & 2 Cor.5:5. This happens before we’ve done anything good or bad as a believer. In the latter passage Paul wrote that it’s God who makes us stand and that He put His seal of ownership on us and His Spirit in us. Where in all the New Testament does it ever say that He breaks that seal and revokes His guarantee? You imply that his other letters contradict these claims. Was Paul not telling us the full story there?
And what about the Lord’s promise in John 6:39-40 that He won’t lose any of us who believe in Him? Isn’t He the Shepherd and aren’t we the sheep? Doesn’t the Shepherd go after the sheep who wander away and bring them back? Isn’t that the Shepherd’s job? After dying that awful death to get us, does He then let some of us slip through His fingers? Don’t several passages like John 10:27-30 and Romans 8:38-39 clearly promise that no one can get us away from Him? Or does your Bible say “no one but us”. If the Lord’s death was sufficient to save us, but not to keep us, then it wasn’t really sufficient.
This is a “saved by grace, kept by works” doctrine and it’s self-contradictory at best. It holds that even though you didn’t do anything to get yourself saved, Jesus will only help keep you that way if you’re doing everything you can do first. It’s like saying the Shepherd only goes after the sheep who are working hard enough not to wander off. It relegates Him to a participatory role in saving us and gives those of you who live lives that are holy enough to get you into the rapture the very bragging rights that Ephesians 2:8-9 denies you. No matter how you cut it, it turns our salvation into something that some deserve and others don’t.
The solution to all of this is simple and I’ve written about it numerous times. There are two levels to our relationship with God. One is called union. It’s a gift and it’s unconditional. It’s based on belief alone and qualifies you for eternal life with God. You have it forever the minute you ask.
The other is fellowship. It’s conditional and earns you rewards, both here and in eternity. Living a life that’s pleasing to God brings great blessing here, and can also qualify you for crowns and other unnamed treasure in Heaven. It’s based on your works. You can’t know if you have any treasure or crowns until you get to the Bema Seat after it’s too late.
The many Scriptures that promise the free and irrevocable gift of salvation are about union with God. Those that speak of good behavior and promise blessings and crowns for the victorious are about fellowship.
This view removes all the “contradiction” in Scripture, all the merit from salvation, and all the argument about security.
June 2nd, 2009, 12:03 PM
ONLY God knows whether or not a heart is truly repentive or not. I am NOT going to say who is or is not saved, but being saved once at 12 does not assure a man of 80 who never opened his Bible and used the Lord's name in vain and mocked "Bible Thumpers" that he is going to Heaven. ONLY God knows but the Bible clearly states that it IS possible to depart from the faith.
what is the difference between a person who departs from the faith 1 day later or 18 years later...if the Bible says that it is possible to depart from the faith, then it is. I can think of some pastors who were walking right with the Lord and it seems that even they can be tempted away from the truth and are no longer walking with the Lord and are preaching this Emergent theology.
June 2nd, 2009, 12:34 PM
I think some people are playing with fire when they start trying to diminish the work of the Cross. As the article by Jack Kelly clearly points out, to think that you can be saved by grace but then need to work at keeping it OR by claiming that you're saved but that you can somehow become unsaved by walking away from God, again...you are minimizing the work that Christ did on the Cross. The Bible clearly states that we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit so if anyone thinks they can get saved and then walk away from their Salvation, then based on God's Word (once you're sealed you're sealed) you weren't saved in the first place.
Second of all, being filled with the Holy Spirit or sealed by the Holy Spirit upon acceptance of Christ as your Savior doesn't mean YOU all of a sudden choose to "do good" but instead Christ lives in you through the Holy Spirit so the changes that you go through during the growth in your Christian walk is not YOU making these changes for Christ but Christ changing you through the Holy Spirit...when you become saved you submit yourself to God, you submit your will so that He can do His Will in you and by doing His Will, you automatically change but you have to submit your will to His in order for this change to happen so again....................if you are claiming that you have accepted Christ as your Savior but then you're taking the Lord's name in vain....then I hate to be so blunt but you probably weren't saved in the first place. Just because a person CLAIMS they've accepted Christ, doesn't mean they have...that's why the Lord says you will know them (those who are truly saved) by their fruit.
I know it's not the easiest thing to deal with....to hear that you were probably not saved in the first place, I know because I had to face the same reality recently. I accepted Christ as my Savior at a young age (12 years old) but I rebelled at 15 and didn't come back to the Lord until I was almost 38. The whole time I swore I was saved but that I had just rebelled (the prodigal daughter per se) but bottom line I had to face was that the chances of me being saved were next to nil, there was no change in my life, I continued to live however I chose to and without a conscience of it......there is NO way I could have lived as I did and still been saved, it just doesn't happen. Having to face the thought that I went all those years knowing about Jesus, believing I WAS saved (that was the scary part) and then coming to the conclusion that if you're saved you are a new creature in Christ.....so if there's no new creature in Christ, what does that most likely mean? It most likely means that you didn't walk away from your Salvation but instead you weren't truly saved in the first place. It's easy to make the claim but just because you profess to be saved, doesn't mean you are...your fruit will tell the truth.
1 Corinthians 3:16,17
2 Corinthians 1:21
2 Corinthians 5:5
Once you become saved and truly accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are sealed by the Spirit, nobody can take you away from Him (you can't lose your Salvation) and if you can walk away from your Salvation (knowing what being truly saved means) then you weren't saved in the first place.
June 2nd, 2009, 12:50 PM
They are included on The Links Page under General on the main RR page.
Yes, I see that now. Thank you for pointing out where you got the link. I brought this to the attention of the moderators so there's no future confusion. :hug
June 2nd, 2009, 12:55 PM
Yes, I see that now. Thank you for pointing out where you got the link. I brought this to the attention of the moderators so there's no future confusion. :hug
:hug...I love hugs...!
I typically steer clear of this topic due to the controversy. I just wanted a hug! lol!
June 2nd, 2009, 12:58 PM
:hug...I love hugs...!
So glad to be able to clear that confusion up! Thank you! :hug
June 2nd, 2009, 01:25 PM
Is the following verse referencing ETERNAL security? (Sorry if I sound stupid.)
“And I give unto them [ETERNAL LIFE]; and they shall never perish, neither shall [ANY MAN] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and [NO MAN] is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29).
June 2nd, 2009, 01:27 PM
Text: John 3:15-16 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
So far, you have answered three questions to help you gain assurance of salvation. In Part One, you studied what God has done so that you might be saved. From Part Two, you examined what you must do to be saved. From Part Three, you noted three biblical evidences of salvation. Yet, another logical question arises which affects your assurance of salvation. That question is, “Can I ever lose my salvation?”
In the above text, you find a promise of God mentioned twice. God has promised “eternal life” or “everlasting life” to those who believe in His Son. Can one who has believed unto salvation ever lose this eternal life God has promised?
Baptists believe that the Scriptures teach the “eternal security” of the Believer. This teaching declares that you can never lose your salvation. Baptists believe that the blood of Christ which was powerful enough to save you is also powerful enough to secure you.
Consider three biblical passages which teach the eternal security of the Believer.
I. Provision of Salvation
Why has a righteous God chosen to save an unrighteous sinner? Examine two verses of Scripture which tell you why. The first verse is found in our text. John wrote, “For God [SO LOVED] the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). Another verse which reveals God’s reason for saving sinners is, “But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). These verses tell you about God’s provision of salvation.
It is God’s provision of love that saves and keeps us. Concerning this love, Paul wrote, “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the [LOVE OF GOD], which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39).
According to Romans 8, there are two things which secure your salvation.
A. Love That Secures
This passage tells of a love that secures. “Nothing,” Paul wrote, can “separate us from the love of God. . . .” God’s love is proven through Christ’s death on the cross to provide for the salvation of mankind. It is the inseparable love of God that saves and that secures.
B. Limitations That Secure
From this passage, you learn of limitations that secure your salvation. Nothing– not anything– can separate us from the amazing love of God. Romans 8:38-39 lists ten categories of things which cannot separate us. These limitations which secure us are:
1. death; 2. nor life; 3. nor angels; 4. nor principalities; 5. nor powers; 6. nor things present; 7. nor things to come; 8. nor height; 9. nor depth; 10. nor any other creature.
What can separate us? Our sin cannot, for it is a thing present. Neither can Satan separate us, for he is an angel which has fallen. You cannot even separate yourself, for you are any other creature. Nothing can separate you from God. It is this provision of God’s love that keeps you saved.
II. Protection of Salvation
Because God loves you so much, He protects you. You have been redeemed (or saved) by the precious blood of His own Son. Therefore, you are of great value to Almighty God.
Because He loves and values you, notice how God protects you. John wrote of this protection, “And I give unto them [ETERNAL LIFE]; and they shall never perish, neither shall [ANY MAN] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and [NO MAN] is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29).
A. Savior’s Hand
First, the Believer is described as being in the Savior’s hand. Jesus wants you to know that He has you safe and secure in His hand. As He holds on to you, no man, not anyone can take you from His hand. His hand is a place of safety and security.
B. Sovereign Hand
Yet again Jesus assures us of our safety by telling us we are also in the sovereign hand of His Father. In His hand, no man can pluck you out. In Their hands, you are safe and secure for all eternity. In fact, verse 29 teaches what I call the “double eternal security” of the Believer.
It is this protection of salvation which assures you that you can never lose your salvation. You are safe and secure in the hands of the Father and of His Son.
III. Position of Salvation
You are inseparable from God’s love and are protected by the very hand of God. Yet still another verse teaches the security of the Believer. Of this security, John wrote, “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God . . .” (1st John 3:1). Salvation places you into the family of God.
This new relationship with God is by birth and by blood.
Jesus spoke of a birth that is a necessity for salvation in John 3. He said, “Ye must be born again.” Of course, this birth is spiritual. It is a result of a true salvation experience. Your physical birth made you the child of your father. Your spiritual birth made you a child of the heavenly Father. You could refuse to claim your earthly father or he could refuse to claim you.
Yet, the fact remains you are still his child. Nothing you or he could ever do would change that. Consequently, your spiritual birth made you a child of God. Your spiritual birth forever settled your position with God. Sin can break your fellowship, but not your relationship with God. You cannot be unborn again, therefore your spiritual birth secures your position with God.
Paul wrote, “But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ” (Ephesians 2:13). The blood which flows in your veins establishes your earthly kindred. Your spiritual kinship was permanently settled by the blood of Jesus the moment you believed. Is the blood of Jesus which saved you powerful enough to keep you saved? Yes, it is enough to keep you saved for all eternity.
Can I lose my salvation? Your salvation is secured by God’s provision of love, by the protection of God’s hand, and by the position of salvation. God keeps you in His heart, in His hand, and in His household.
http://www.learnthebible.org/grow_lose_salvation.htm is the link. Thought this was good.
June 2nd, 2009, 01:44 PM
I am asking because I am not able to find defining scripture that goes either way on this. Most of the verses I find have the word "if" in them. On my wed night bible study we have been going through John 15:6, and digging into it's meaning.
John 15:6 (New King James Version)
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
I would like to hear from both sides of the discussion we can or cannot loose our salvation. I will try to play devils advocate from both points of view. I am hoping that someone has the answers I am looking for. I am honestly seeking the truth, so please don't think I am trying to put a stumbling block in front of anyone, just feeling convicted to find out about this.
Hope this makes sense to someone other than me
Salvation by works, if it is not ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is it not?
Didn't Jesus say: Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Only man takes back a Gift, God does not!
If we have to DO ANYTHING (DOING SOMETHING TO MAINTAIN SOMETHING IS WORK) TO MAINTAIN OUR GIFT Then we "are working" to keep it.
Grace is giving or doing something for someone who does NOT deserve it.
Mercy is the withholding of punishment to those who DO deserve it.
Isn't beautiful how Mercy and Grace contrast each other and how
AWESOME OUR FATHER, HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS.
So if we have to do anything at all, anything to keep from losing that gift
we are working, people do not work to recieve gifts. Gifts are given usually
out of love for someone. Down here there may be other motivations for
giving someone a gift. But with God He tells us what is necessary to recieve
the gift. Once we have it there is nothing to maintain it because God wants
no man boasting about how he is working more than someone else to keep
it. Christ's Sacrifice was all God required and anything else from us would
only be as Filthy Rags to wit:
Isaiah 64:6a But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses
are as filthy rags.
Then having said that how could we give or maintain any "Righteousness"
on our own that could be worthy before God??????????
THE ANSWER IS "WE CANNOT"
ONCE SAVED IS ALWAYS SAVED!
GOD IS TRUE!
MAN IS A LIAR!!!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.