Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[BBB]

Probably the main argument to this will go to how can someone with the Holy Spirit deny Christ?



Exactly. Don't discount His work.

[vemee]

One big problem I have with osas in not based on scripture but emotions (no we should not base doctrine on emotions) ; we have a family member who has chosen to live in sin and is saying they will still go to heaven because of osas. I believe they once were saved but it just flies in my face how you can purposely use your freedom in Christ to sin. I believe this person will be saved but that God will have to deal harshly with them in order to turn them around.

[vemee]

My take on the second peter verse is that it is referring to the victims of the false prophets who get sucked back into the world after escaping. Also I listened to Chuck Smith's study of Hebrews 6 and even though he is not comfortable with the passage ( I do not know what his position on eternal security is) he feel it is referring to those who have already become Christians.

I think that this question will probably have to go with predestination; there are scriptures that may indicate predestination yet free will is clearly taught by scripture. It may be reconciled only in the higher thoughts of God.

I probably should not post on this tread anymore for 2 reasons: 1. I believe the board rules do not permit promoting an idea that goes against eternal security and I am afraid if I keep arguing it will become promoting and I do not want to be divisive. 2. While I am leaning toward believers being able to walk away from God I believe it rarely happens if at all because we are given the Holy Spirit to teach and guide us. Even if we stray he is there to bring us back no matter how long it takes. Also we have not been given the spirit of fear, so we should not fear that we could lose our salvation. We do not skip back and forth over the saved and unsaved line. So I don' want to be contentious about something when my position is not that different from everyone's.

[CID03]

2 Corinthians 1:21 (King James Version)
Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

2 Corinthians 1:21 (New International Version)
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

[Bound2Him]

So was this man in the cage saved or not? It always confused and botherd me.

[BLESSED BEYOND BELIEF]

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

[Wally]

***this response is to a question about a character in J Bunyans "Pilgrim's Progress" You may have to dig back to find original posts as this thread is merged.



The man in the cage is not saved. He took the gift and crushed and discarded it. He knows his future and is condemned by his hardened heart.


It would be a deep philosophical discussion if God purposefully hardened his heart and denied him repentence,

or as I believe, he loved his sin more than the grace of Jesus and refused to give it up to His sovreignty. He is denying himself repentance.


It is a fearful notion and one that should encourage self examination by the Word of God. (James & 1,2,3 John)

It is often said, if you are worried about your standing with Christ, don't worry. If you are not worried, you better start FEARING GOD NOW.

[jadbad2004]

I think Bunyan is illustrating one of the soils which received the Word (seed).

This individual "experienced" Jesus. He heard and inclined his ear to the Gospel but not his heart. He received the truth but did nothing with it or as the one soil showed, became choked with weeds, passions, cares of life. Is it possible God sent trials, chided this man? I believe so, but to no avail.


It is a stern warning to any who would -try Jesus. It is all or nothing. And if you receive it you get all the promisies. But if you do not, if you treat christianity as some membership club, a totem or good luck charm....

Then you have turned on the Gift and considered it as trash.

It would imply, like the gardener, God will invest so much in an unbeliever, just so many prunings, grafts, transplants, and then into the burn pile. But once a believer... The promises come, and the Holy Spirit does the work. And a mighty work it is.

This then comes to election. God has some appointed to salvation, others to destruction. AGAIN WE HAVE NO IDEA who is in each camp. We get to judge what we see, and obvious continous conduct will have its results, but that is to effect our prayers and ministry to those individuals, not decide their eternal habitation.

Awesome post Wally :thumb

[sirgak]

It seems clear to me that Bunyan is referring to Hebrews 6. There are at least three interpretations on who the passage is talking about.

1) A person once saved, hardened his heart and now can't repent again (Bunyan's view)

2) A person was never saved to begin with, but had only "tasted" the gift

3) A saved person, mature in the faith, who has left Christ for another religion.

I believe through careful study that the third is the correct interpretation. In context, the whole book of Hebrews is talking to Jews who had trusted in Christ, but now because of their newfound faith, they were receiving persecution. As a result, they were thinking back to the "good old days" when as practicing Jews in the temple and following Moses, they didn't have this kind of persecution. Hence, the writer to Hebrews shows how Christ is superior to Moses, and to the temple and its sacrifices, and is urging them not to go back to the Law from which Christ freed them.

At the end of Hebrews 5, the writer tells them they should have become mature enough to become teachers, adult enough in the faith to eat meat like an adult. Yet, they were still at a baby level wanting milk.

The writer says, then in Hebrews 6, that they would move on to maturity, if God permits. The question arises, why wouldn't God permit it? Then the writer gives a special situation, applicable to the Hebrews. The writer says, for in the case of those who... and then gives a list of conditions. If you look at those conditions, they are a progression of spiritual growth. The last one is "have tasted the powers of the age to come." This means full maturity as a believer. "...and then fall away"

This is a situation where a mature Christian walks away to some other faith. In such a situation, God will not permit them them to repent. I believe they are still saved, but they have dishonored and shamed the name of Christ, and their testimony is gone. For the Hebrews to whom the letter was written, it would be a mature one of their number going back to Moses and the Law.

The effect can be likened in our modern day to the president of a Bible college announcing that he was leaving evangelicalism and becoming a Mormon. Think of the shockwaves that would create, and the confidence in Christ and the Bible that it would undermine in a the minds of a lot of weaker Christians. Then, imagine that person saying, oh, you know what, Christ was the way after all. Too late. That man would be discredited, and no one would trust him again.

That is what I think Hebrews 6 is teaching, and in this light, Bunyan is wrong.

[Wally]

Sirgak,

The danger in the third assumption is that we can by works effect our salvation (or loss of it). This is definately not in agreement with Scripture.

I believe there is a thread on Hebrews 6 where the key is found in the earlier verse where Paul sets aside doctrine and goes into a "suppose this is the situation ...."


You should refer to the OSAS threads to explore this line of thought.