Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[kgreen20]

I don't think Paul wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews. It doesn't bear his trademarks. I think someone else wrote that one.

[sirgak]

Sirgak,

The danger in the third assumption is that we can by works effect our salvation (or loss of it). This is definately not in agreement with Scripture.

I believe there is a thread on Hebrews 6 where the key is found in the earlier verse where Paul sets aside doctrine and goes into a "suppose this is the situation ...."


You should refer to the OSAS threads to explore this line of thought.

I appreciate the feedback, but I think perhaps I did not make myself clear. This verse is NOT talking about salvation, either getting saved, staying saved, or regaining saved.

It is talking about someone who is saved, and remains saved. But, that special case is one of how that person will not be permitted to go on to leave behind baby stuff, as said in the opening of chapter six. The writer said, "this we shall do (ie leave behind elementary things), if God permits."

The question of what Hebrews 6 is addressing is, in that context, that there exists a special situation where a saved person has forsaken the faith. They're still saved, but they will not be allowed by God to leave behind the elementary things and advance on to mature teachings.

Bit, I repeat myself: Hebrews 6 is not talking about salvation. It is talking about leaving behind basic teachings and moving on to mature teachings, and then lists the one special case where God will not allow this to happen.

I completely believe in OSAS: once saved, always saved. Hebrews 6 is about spiritual growth, and the one special case where God won't allow a person to do that.

[CID03]

of Hebrews 6, the author is speaking of things that accompany salvation. I don't think this chapter is talking about losing salvation. In my limited understanding, I think it is telling them to move on to maturity since some of them were being enticed back into the law and doing so they would be crucifying the Lord over and over again (daily sacrifices)..... perhaps.:idunno

[CID03]

This Q & A is from Got Questions.Org

Question: "Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?"

Answer: Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

[Eternally]

From the gotquestions.org link:

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/John%2010.27-29); Romans 8:35 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Romans%208.35), 38-39 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Romans%208.38-39); Philippians 1:6 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Philippians%201.6); 1 Peter 1:4-5 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Peter%201.4-5)), and Hebrews 6:4-6 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Hebrews%206.4-6) confirms that doctrine.

[Evangelist16]

I would like to apologize to the mods and those who view this thread. My response wasn't as it should be. Again, my apologies.

[Anddra]

I would like to apologize to the mods and those who view this thread. My response wasn't as it should be. Again, my apologies.

Thank you. It is never easy to apologise but it does help us grow. :shake

[tekton]

Jer 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

[sirgak]

This Q & A is from Got Questions.Org

Question: "Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?"

Answer: Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

Nice article, as far as it goes, but I still think it is disregarding the incredibly important context of that section of the book of Hebrews!

The CONTEXT is that the Hebrew Christian believers were NOT growing as they should have:

Hebrews 5:11-14
11We have much to say about this (ie Christ being like Melchesidek, Heb 5:7-10), but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

The writer to Hebrews tells them that it is time to grow up, to mature, to move on from basic, elementary doctrines, and move from liquid baby food doctrines to adult solid meat doctrines:

Hebrews 6:1-2
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

The writer then raises an issue:

Hebrews 6:3 And God permitting, we will do so.

Ignoring this context is where so many interpretations of this passage miss it.

The writer is saying that there is a special situation where God will NOT permit it. But, permit what? The context establish the answer: "let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ." Also, Heb 5:14 "But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Leave behind the basics, in other words, and grow up in the faith, leave "milk" (ie spiritual basics) behind and go onto to "solid food" (ie spiritual mature doctrines). So, what basics is the writer urging them to leave behind? These basics:

Heb 6:1b-2 "not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Ignoring this context found at the end of Hebrews 5 and the beginning of Hebrews 6 will give rise to wrong interpretations.

The progression of descriptions are of someone who is a genuine believer, and the passages indicate true spiritual growth.

Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,

The one being described for this place (ie where God will not permit) reaches the height of maturity: "and tasted the powers of the age to come." This is descriptive of someone who had become a MATURE Christian. They do NOT lose their salvation if they turn away from Christ, but neither will they, if they should "come back", ever be able to get beyond "baby food" again.

6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

They will fall under this special, unique situation where God will NOT permit them to leave behind "elementary doctrines". They will STILL go to Heaven, and are still saved.

The writer to Hebrews brings this special situation up, because it is a POSSIBLE explanation for why he wrote to them saying "you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again." However, then the writer assures them, that he is convinced that this is NOT the situation for them.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation.

You see, Hebrews 6 raises for us the question of why the writer would bring this up at all in the first place? The answer is fearfully found throughout the letter of Hebrews. The writer teaches them (and us) that Christ is better than the Law, better than Moses, better than the temple, better than the Law's sacrifices.

All this teaching is the writer's response to nip the situation in the bud, ie not to allow them to abandon Christ for something lesser. Hebrews is written because they were tempted to leave Christ, and go back to the Law and Judaism. Why else would the writer go into all those details, and teach them all that pertains on how Christ fulfilled the Law and made the perfect sacrifice, and how His priesthood is an order of priesthood like Melchizedek's and hence superior to the priesthood of the Law in every way?

[Saire Arkalla]

Does Matthew 7 have anything of an impact on the subject?

Verses 13-23 say: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The verses that really caught my eye were verse 19 ending at 23, about how the bad trees are cut down to how believers are cast into hell.

Is once saved always saved like the golden tool that fixes everyone's salvation through their faith? All it takes is to believe? And if that's so, you could live like the world, do the things of the world, and still make heaven?

If a believer has bad fruit in his life he will be hewn down as the verse says right? If fruit is translated as acts then shouldn't we repent everytime we bear bad fruit? Or do we keep it, with the notion of eternal security in mind?

Lord Jesus even mention how born again believers who do his works and wonders are cast into the pit. I think it's safe to say these people were those who asked Jesus into their hearts and became saved, but were cast away because of their inquity. They practiced their sin and did not repent. They bathed in it and, even though they did his works, were cast off. If we are truly saved forever, why does this happen? Is it a certain amount of faith? I know God saves us, and not us by ourselves, but what is the evidence of a truly saved person?

This leads me to the issue of repentance. On a site I adore very much, gracethrufaith.com, he says generally how all our sins are paid for, which are indeed found in the Bible. But if that's the case, why is their a narrow way, and how come so few find it. It seems like an easy thing to do if you ask Jesus Christ into your heart, I know I'm saved, however every time I sin, whether concious or unconcious, I feel the need to repent, because I'm convicted of the holy spirit. And also because I fear God and hate my sin.

This is just the way I see things. It just seems to good to just believe and be saved just like that, especially after I hear so many professing Christians who have done the same after crying out to God after being saved being just like world in every way possible.