Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Christina]

This is a very long thread... Can someone point me where and if Todd put in the links to his board standing on this issue?

Oh never mind. I see that Steve put the links here. Thanks!

And i ugess it comes down to If you were a true Christian. It is hard once you have "tasted" the grace and experience the glory of God to depart from Him. I think this is were the big issue is.

There's an intersting angle to look at....how can anyone who has "tasted" the grace and experienced the Glory of God.....turn and walk away from Him for good? I know as Christians we still fall and even sometimes walk away temporarily (to go and sin) but we always come back to Him and repent....how can anyone be a true born again believer walk away and turn their back of God for good?:scratch

[vemee]

There's an interesting angle to look at....how can anyone who has "tasted" the grace and experienced the Glory of God.....turn and walk away from Him for good? I know as Christians we still fall and even sometimes walk away temporarily (to go and sin) but we always come back to Him and repent....how can anyone be a true born again believer walk away and turn their back of God for good?:scratch

I hate to reference this verse because it has already been discussed and argued on this thread before but Hebrews 6:4-8 indicates that it is possible for those who have tasted the good word of God to fall away. Some do not believe that those falling away are full Christians but the description of being partakers of the Holy Spirit makes me think that they had been given the Holy Spirit and saved. Also it says that if they fall away it is impossible to renew them again to redemption.

If a Christian can fall away then it is due to the hardening of his heart toward God by sin. The hardening of the heart causes unbelief and then that causes them to fall away Hebrews 3:12-19. This is why God wants us to confess our sins to him, so he can cleanse of unrighteousness 1 John 1:9. By doing so the damage done to us by sin is repaired. I think that Christians can get involved in sin and instead of repenting they try to hide it from God just like Adam and Eve did. Sometimes they ignore the Spirit's correction to repent and want to continue to avoid God more because they are hooked into some kind of sin. If it goes on long enough then they may no longer care about God and then fall into unbelief. At that point they do not want to repent and never will look back.

[Steve53]

I hate to reference this verse because it has already been discussed and argued on this thread before but Hebrews 6:4-8 indicates that it is possible for those who have tasted the good word of God to fall away. Some do not believe that those falling away are full Christians but the description of being partakers of the Holy Spirit makes me think that they had been given the Holy Spirit and saved. Also it says that if they fall away it is impossible to renew them again to redemption.

If a Christian can fall away then it is due to the hardening of his heart toward God by sin. The hardening of the heart causes unbelief and then that causes them to fall away Hebrews 3:12-19. This is why God wants us to confess our sins to him, so he can cleanse of unrighteousness 1 John 1:9. By doing so the damage done to us by sin is repaired. I think that Christians can get involved in sin and instead of repenting they try to hide it from God just like Adam and Eve did. Sometimes they ignore the Spirit's correction to repent and want to continue to avoid God more because they are hooked into some kind of sin. If it goes on long enough then they may no longer care about God and then fall into unbelief. At that point they do not want to repent and never will look back.


http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=9

Article VIII. THE EXTENT OF SALVATION

When an unregenerate person exercises that faith in Jesus Christ which is illustrated and described as such in the New Testament, he passes immediately out of spiritual death into spiritual life, and from the old creation into the new; being justified from all things, accepted before the Father according as Jesus Christ His Son is accepted, loved as Jesus Christ is loved, having his place and portion as linked to Him and one with Him forever. Though the saved one may have occasion to grow in the realization of his blessings and to know a fuller measure of divine power through the yielding of his life more fully to God, he is, as soon as he is saved, in possession of every spiritual blessing and absolutely complete in Jesus Christ, and is therefore in no way required by God to seek a so-called “second blessing,” or a “second work of grace” (John 5:24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+5%3A24); 17:23; Acts 13:39 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+13%3A39); Rom. 5:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rom.+5%3A1); 1 Cor. 3:21 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Cor.+3%3A21)–23; Eph. 1:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Eph.+1%3A3); Col. 2:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Col.+2%3A10); 1 John 4:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+4%3A17); 5:11–12).
Article X. ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER

Because of the eternal purpose of God toward the objects of His love, because of His freedom to exercise grace toward the meritless on the ground of the propitiatory blood of Jesus Christ, because of the very nature of the divine gift of eternal life, because of the present and unending intercession and advocacy of Jesus Christ in heaven, because of the immutability of the unchangeable covenants of God, because of the regenerating, abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of all who are saved, we and all true believers everywhere, once saved shall be kept saved forever. God is a holy and righteous Father and that, since He cannot overlook the sin of His children, He will, when they persistently sin, chasten them and correct them in infinite love; but having undertaken to save them and keep them forever, apart from all human merit, He, who cannot fail, will in the end present every one of them faultless before the presence of His glory and conformed to the image of His Son (John 5:24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+5%3A24); 10:28; 13:1; 14:16–17; 17:11; Rom. 8:29 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rom.+8%3A29); 1 Cor. 6:19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Cor.+6%3A19); Heb. 7:25 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Heb.+7%3A25); 1 John 2:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+2%3A1)–2; 5:13; Jude 24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+24)).

[vemee]

steve53, I am sorry I posted after you posted the articles, I don't know how I missed your post but I did. I do not intend to belabor my point anymore.

[Steve53]

steve53, I am sorry I posted after you posted the articles, I don't know how I missed your post but I did. I do not intend to belabor my point anymore.


:hug

[bek1]

I hate to reference this verse because it has already been discussed and argued on this thread before but Hebrews 6:4-8 indicates that it is possible for those who have tasted the good word of God to fall away. Some do not believe that those falling away are full Christians but the description of being partakers of the Holy Spirit makes me think that they had been given the Holy Spirit and saved. Also it says that if they fall away it is impossible to renew them again to redemption.

If a Christian can fall away then it is due to the hardening of his heart toward God by sin. The hardening of the heart causes unbelief and then that causes them to fall away Hebrews 3:12-19. This is why God wants us to confess our sins to him, so he can cleanse of unrighteousness 1 John 1:9. By doing so the damage done to us by sin is repaired. I think that Christians can get involved in sin and instead of repenting they try to hide it from God just like Adam and Eve did. Sometimes they ignore the Spirit's correction to repent and want to continue to avoid God more because they are hooked into some kind of sin. If it goes on long enough then they may no longer care about God and then fall into unbelief. At that point they do not want to repent and never will look back.

I believe this passage is referring to believers too. But that is as far as I can agree with you on this subject. It clearly describes a born again believer in vs 4 and 5. The "falling away" that it speaks of is often interpreted to mean one walks away from the faith and as a result loses their salvation. Will you be willing to take that to it's logical conclusion? If the believer who walks away loses their "eternal security" as you say, then the logical conclusion of that comes in the next phrase that they "cannot be brought back to repentence". This would mean that one who walks away from the faith, would have no chance whatever of becoming saved again...that was it, and that was their last chance, end of story. There is no other way of concluding the issue IF you take this to mean "loss of salvation". But this would indeed contradict ample scripture all over that once one is saved they are eternally saved forever.

Here is my position on this passage (sister passage is Hebrews 10...be sure and take a look...verses 26-31) Now, bear with me please...this is such a tough one to understand, and took me years to reach my position. Like most here I used to think this passage was clearly talking about one who had never really been saved, but based on the description of the person in question, you have to see that the writer went to extreme means to make sure we KNEW it was a brother/sister in Christ being referenced. This brought back to repentence is saying that once a believer walks away (and I believe this to be THE definition of apostasy, taking what you believed to be true-and that belief being so real that it brought about a description like the one in vs 4-5, and then turning your back on it and walking away...not only that but publically proclaiming the gospel as false and subjecting Jesus to "public disgrace". This "subjecting Jesus to public disgrace" can only be done by one who has Jesus residing IN him. He is the person who once believed...lived it and through the course of time, became discouraged to the point of unbelief, and furthermore....enough to proclaim himself as one who "used to believe such things but now see's that it was all fairy tales..." How many people have we all known and run across and heard of with this story. The only reason this brings Jesus "public disgrace" is because His Spirit whom sealed this brother or sister STILL resides in this person.

Or take a look at the sister passage above....Hebrews 10 describes a similar senario...in vs 29 "How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him , and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? The key word that describes this individual is "sanctified"....please take a good look and notice that in this passage the Holy Spirit (author of scripture) just defined this individual as a brother in Christ! WOW. This is another passage where we tend to go..."oh that person was never really saved....." or some others would say accurately that this person is saved, but this punishment is loss of eternal salvation. But the Holy Spirit has just defined this person as saved, and as we know from other passages, once you are born again, you cannot and will not lose it EVEN IF YOU WANT TO!!! (my capital letters aren't anger...it's excitement...just wanted to make sure and clear that up. :) )

Ok, so back to Hebrews 6 passage, why is it that when a believing brother or sister in Christ becomes apostate and turns their back on their savior that they can no longer be brought back to a place of repentence and being a faithful servant? Because everything you could say to them, THEY ALREADY KNOW! They already experienced a time in their life in which they walked with God, and at some point, let the devil gain a foothold in their lives and from there on they spiraled downward to eventually a point of disbelief. And all the while this was happening, they knew all along what the "christian advice" would have been to keep them from this point of no return. If they get to a point where they work alongside the enemy bringing public disgrace to the Lord, they are at a point of no return in their opportunity to bear fruit that will not burn on the day they face Jesus at the Bema Seat. Look at the sister passage again in Hebrews 10: starting in vs 26: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." What tends to happen is that we always associate fire, outer darkness, and punishment with the lake of fire, or eternal damnation. I believe you have to be really careful and pay very close attention to what is in view and who is being addressed before you automatically assume we are talking about the fire of hell and eternal damnation. Keep in mind that first of all the above verse starts out with "IF WE" talking about believers, including the writer himself...all saved individuals. You can see this throughout the book of Hebrews...."brothers" again the Holy Spirit is addressing those who have clearly been born again...something that cannot be lost. (we might address a church about something in our day and age, and most likely will be talking to both believers and unbelievers...but the Holy Spirit chose over and over the word "brethren" to make it clear WHO HE WAS TALKING TO. And no where does it distinguish and add "and to those who think they are saved, but really might not be..")

Now as far as what is in view. I have already made my point that saved vs unsaved wasn't in view....I will now try to make a point that rewards vs suffering loss is what is in view. And this at the Judgement Seat of Christ, or the Bema Seat. (a theology we really should pay more attention to that gets lost and forgotten a lot.) I will go on to say that I think scripture makes it very clear that not all believers will be "overcomers", not all believers will be found faithful, and not all believers will get to rule and reign with Christ. This will affect their place in the 1000 year reign of Christ, they will be there as subjects but not as ones who persevered to the end and recieved rewards.

If you look at Hebrews as a whole almost every chapter builds on the previous chapter with that little word "therefore"...so in order to take something out of the middle of the book of Hebrews and identify what it means, you have to go backwards through all the "therefore's" to start at the beginning and see what is in view...If we go back to the 4th chapter, we see that there is a Sabbath rest for the people of God. He uses the OT and the example of Israel to help us understand the picture, but there remains a "rest" for us, which is the 1000 year reign. Vs 11 indicates we have to make effort to enter this rest. And vs 13 speaks of the account we make before Christ someday....our time at the Bema seat has in view the "rest" or 1000 year reign. We are urged to hold firmly to our faith in light of the coming judgement. Not because we "might lose our salvation " or to prove we are "really saved". Our motivation should be the Judgement Seat of Christ. The Kingdom reign of Christ being the place our rewards come to fruition. Near the end of Chapter 5, the author goes on to show the correlation between Melchizedek and Christ. He expands on the priestly role of Melchizedek, and of Jesus, but at the end he says something interesting...vs 11 "we have much to say about this, but is is hard to explain because you are slow to learn." ("this" being more about Melchizedek-which what he has yet to go into is the kingly role of Melchizedek in correlation with Jesus, which will be in the 1000 reign) He goes on to point out that there is a problem preventing them from moving from "milk" to "meat". He clearly says in Heb 6: 1-3 that the "milk" that they seem to be stuck on and unable to leave is issues surrounding the doctrine of salvation. (sound familiar?) This is where the situation in question comes into the picture...the believer who falls away into apostasy...basically he is saying "leave them be" they won't come back to repentence, there is nothing you can tell them they don't already know. This is in the same chapter he is urging the brethren to move past the "milk" (ie: salvation issues) to the "meat" (Christ's coming Kingdom and kingly role...keeping in mind he had more to say about Melchizedek then he was able to because of the people getting stuck on milk. Vs 12 then goes on to urge them to go on to maturity, basically to bear fruit so they can inherit their reward. Verse 19 reminds us of the hope we have in Christ "an anchor for the soul" so that we can be free to move past the milk and doctrine of salvation to the meat of God's Word. Then after clearing that up, he moves back into what he was going to say about Melchizedek...and he finally correlates the kingly aspect of him to Jesus. WOW! The meat of the Word, is Jesus, His coming Kingdom (literal 1000 year reign) and our working towards the goal of our reward in relationship to His 1000 year reign, given to us, or lost at the the Bema Seat. Please note that in relationship to our rewards or loss of, the word "salvation" is also used, but based on the context of where you see it you can generally know if it's referring to our eternal Salvation (spirit salvation) (like it's use in the book of John etc...) or the salvation we are currently working out, sanctification...or salvation of our souls (literally our "life"..and how we live it until we stand before Christ at the judgement seat.) This kind of "salvation" is in relationship to our rest, which you can tell when it is being referred to because it is always associated with some kind of works...how you live etc... Our eternal salvation...is already finished, and as we know, that was finished at the cross of Christ, and realized at the point of belief in Him. The salvation of our souls ("life") is an ongoing process and our inheritance in the 1000 year reign depends on this...

I think I will stop for now....since I have already been here a long time, and my little guy just woke from his nap. I hope this prompts further look into the eternal security of the believer. Lastly please look at I Cor. 3:10-15...a great look at the details about the Bema Seat, and the fire I was talking about that is not associated with the lake of fire, but something different all together. I would also advise going and reading the parables in light of the Judgment Seat and 1000 year reign (especially since they all start out saying "the kingdom of God is like"...not the "message of the gospel of grace is like"...) Please note that often the people that were referenced were "servants" there were both wicked and faithful, but they were all servants just the same. Same with the "virgins"...some were ready and some were not, but they were still all "virgins" and I believe this is confirming that the discussion is about different types of believers, not believers vs unbelievers. If it these were talking about believers vs unbelievers i don't think the name "servant" and "virgin" would have been given to the unbeliever. Likewise I don't think the coming of Christ would of addressed the unfaithful/and unprepared person, because we know the lost are judged at the end of the 1000 year reign. But in these parables, the judgement between the faithful and unfaithful servants/virgins took place at the same judgement. This is the Bema Seat.

[vemee]

Bek1, Thank you for your detailed explanation, you pointed out several items that I had not considered and did an excellent job in showing how those passages refer to Christians. I would love to debate this further but I feel that since Steve posted the rules any further debate on my part would be seen as disruptive and disrespectful of the board. I think the Bema seat should be taken into consideration; I have wondered if in the parable of the seeds if the plants choked by the weeds mean they lost their salvation or their rewards. In this case I believe they are saved but pass through the fire with just their souls. This is a long thread and I am sure anything I would say would be repeating someone else or even myself.

That's a nice reply Steve, thanks

[Steve53]

I would love to debate this further but I feel that since Steve posted the rules any further debate on my part would be seen as disruptive and disrespectful of the board.

Thus far, you have been very respectful of the board rules so don't let that be a concern.

I only posted the Doctrinal Belief Statements relating to this discussion because the statement very nicely sums up the OSAS position with Biblical references.:thumb

This topic is very important to a lot of people and opinions (obviously) differ. As long as the discussion remains polite and not heated, the thread will remain open. Having said that - What can anyone add to this thread that hasn't already been brought up?

[vemee]

The only new idea that I was trying to bring to the board is that once saved and losing your salvation focuses too much on sinning. Yes grace covers the sin we commit and there is no magic quota of sins that we are allowed before we are kicked out. But I believe the issue should be centered solely on keeping the faith that we start off with as stated in Hebrews 3:14 and Colossians 1:21-23. I had posted earlier in this thread and was focused on someone who is living a sinful lifestyle and does not repent however within my mind I could not reconcile grace and being dead to the law with the passages that suggest the the loss of salvation. Then an angel (just kidding). Then I took a closer look at the verses I quoted above and saw that the Bible was talking about staying in the Faith. I think the clearest warning about falling from grace is given to the in Galatians 5:1-4 where they were warned that Christ would be of no use to them if they were circumcised. Now how does this fit in with the verses quoted by osas, there is a fit somewhere but I haven't found it yet.

[bek1]

The only new idea that I was trying to bring to the board is that once saved and losing your salvation focuses too much on sinning. Yes grace covers the sin we commit and there is no magic quota of sins that we are allowed before we are kicked out. But I believe the issue should be centered solely on keeping the faith that we start off with as stated in Hebrews 3:14 and Colossians 1:21-23. I had posted earlier in this thread and was focused on someone who is living a sinful lifestyle and does not repent however within my mind I could not reconcile grace and being dead to the law with the passages that suggest the the loss of salvation. Then an angel (just kidding). Then I took a closer look at the verses I quoted above and saw that the Bible was talking about staying in the Faith. I think the clearest warning about falling from grace is given to the in Galatians 5:1-4 where they were warned that Christ would be of no use to them if they were circumcised. Now how does this fit in with the verses quoted by osas, there is a fit somewhere but I haven't found it yet.

I just think that this is reminding them that they will put themselves back into slavery (mentally speaking, not spiritually speaking since it's saved individuals being addressed...see further down vs 7.) In verse 7 they started out running the race well, and someone brought in false teaching that made them think they had to take on the law again in order to be saved. This didn't change their eternal destiny through the blood of Christ that these individual's clearly had obtained. It changed their motives for righteous living. It is only by the grace of God that we can run the race well....by submitting to His Spirit. Falling from grace just seems to indicate they were no longer relying on Him to live, but going back to rely on their own flesh. THey won't find the grace of Jesus (the grace that leads us through the process of sanctification and finishing the race with a big "well done"), in living by the law, because they are no longer living by the Spirit but choosing to rely on their own flesh. Again, this does not change their salvation and eternal destination, but it will affect what they will be able to produce at the Bema Seat....it will all burn, because it will have come from their own flesh. Only what comes from the Spirit of God survives the fire at the Bema Seat...this is the only fruit that will please Jesus. This is why it says that Jesus will be of no use to them if they go back to the law....they have Him, but they are wasting the life and gifts they have in Christ, by going back to a dependance on the law.