Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Tron4JC]

Hunt didn't actually claim Calvinists are lost in his book but he did make that suggestion (that is qualified) in his own website recently, which I have a copy of the text of that message (though he seems to have removed it from his site):

Question [composite of several]: Was this a misstatement, or do you really believe what you said in your September Q&A: “Those who only know the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved”?

Answer: The original question was, “Is it possible for someone who believes only in the soteriology of Calvin to be saved?” As I said in my response, there are many Calvinists who were saved before they became Calvinists or who have believed the true gospel in spite of their Calvinism—but “those who know only the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved.” If all one believes is that infant baptism saves, as Calvin taught (and which is the case with many Calvinists), one is certainly not saved. If a person believes that he was saved through infant baptism, how is it possible for him, without relinquishing that false belief, to truly be saved by believing the gospel? He has no need of the true gospel, having already been forgiven his sins and made a child of God through infant baptism. He may affirm at his confirmation that Christ died for his sins, but he still believes that the benefit of that sacrifice came to him through infant baptism long before his “confirmation” of this lie.

How could that false faith save? If it does, then the many former Catholics, Lutherans, and Presbyterians who realized they weren’t saved through their infant baptism, and who put their faith in Christ, were born again, and then baptized as believers, have been deluded. But they would vehemently deny that they were saved all the time in spite of their faith in infant baptism! And they would reject Calvin himself as an “ex-Catholic”—because he continued to rely upon his infant baptism for salvation, he declared that being baptized as a baby was the sure way of knowing one was among the elect, he opposed those who got saved and were then baptized, he banned Anabaptists from Geneva in 1537, and he even had some burned at the stake for this belief.

Am I denying that Calvin was saved? No, only God knew his heart. But if all he believed was (as he taught) that Christ died only for the elect, and that his infant baptism into the Roman Catholic Church proved that he was one of the elect, then he never got saved no matter how eloquently he wrote about Christ’s sufferings on the Cross for our sins.

If all one believes is that one has no choice—that it is God who causes some to believe and not others, and that one must be unwittingly regenerated by Him and only then given faith to believe the gospel—how can such a person make a genuine choice to believe in Christ? How could that person, consistent with this Calvinist belief, ever have the assurance offered in 1 John 5:13? No matter how simple and strong his faith in Christ might seem to be, how could he be certain that such “faith in Christ” was truly given to him by God after He had regenerated him?

If all one believes is that Christ died only for the elect but not for all—how can that person be certain that Christ died for him and that his faith in Christ is not presumption? How can he believe the true gospel that “if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink...let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Jn 7:37; Rv 22:17), if he really believes that he is totally depraved and unable either to hear the invitation or respond to it? Calvin even said that God gives a false sense of assurance to the non-elect the better to **** them. If one’s most basic belief denies the very assurance Scripture offers, how can it be said that one believes the gospel promise of “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31)?

That a person may believe the true gospel and thus be truly saved in spite of believing the false gospel of Calvinism may be possible. But I don’t see how one could sort out the fact that contradictory beliefs were being held. What does one really believe?

[Beth O]

OSAS is a true Biblical concept. Here are a few articles to help shine the light on this confusing topic. You can also go to www.GraceThruFaith.com and type OSAS in the search box to find a good list of articles dealing with OSAS and the scriptures. God bless and Enjoy!! :)

OSAS, The Whole Story
Selah » Eternal Security
A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/eternal-security/osas-the-whole-story

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I'm quoting Chris' post just to encourage those that still may be confused re: whether or not they can lose their salvation to read especially the first article he linked. OSAS-the whole story. I just read it this morning. If you feel there are some verses that could go either way on the topic, read this article. It really helps to get the context in order. ie, have we lost our salvation or are we out of fellowship with the Lord? Still saved, but out of fellowship. In repentance we come back into fellowship with the Lord. Our initial repentance in salvation is turning from self to Christ and we believe that he took the punishment for our sin. We trust in Christ depending on His righteousness for our eternal life. As believers we must continue to repent of our sin to stay in fellowship with the Lord, as we grow to be more like Christ. Still saved.

It is clear that we are saved by Grace through faith alone. Are there some that just barely escape the fire with nothing to place at the Lord's feet, no rewards. Still saved, no rewards. The article will make much more sense. Take the time to read it, even if you think you have it all figured out. I thought I did and it was eye opening for me.

[Beth O]

Well, lets look at it this way. To sin means literally to "miss the mark".

Christians cannot do that, for if they did, his seed could NOT remain in him.

now, that said, it is not because we are so good, but because we are in someone who is truly good, Jesus Christ. It is a positional truth.

I agree a Christian should grow in Holiness. Become more like Christ. When we are born again we hate sin. In our unregenerate state we loved our sin. We loved ourself more than God. In repentance for salvation we turn from self, (death to self) and to Christ. We believe that Jesus took the punishment for our sin. We depend on His righteousness for our eternal life.

Once a person is saved they will struggle against sin. We are still made of flesh, we must choose to live by the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

I believe an unregenerate person will not even struggle against sin, they will most likely just give into it. They are a slave to sin. The believer is no longer a slave to sin. Dead to sin alive in Christ. We take on the yoke of Christ.

I don't believe this means we will not ever sin again. If this is the case, I'm in big trouble. I am still a sinner. I depend on Christs righteousness.

Romans 4:5-6 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

[LaMontre]

I don't believe this means we will not ever sin again. If this is the case, I'm in big trouble. I am still a sinner.

Let me just use this statement as a springboard to make a point here;

Actually, a sinner is only defined by God. It is because of God in us, through the Holy Spirit, that we recognize our condition and submit to Gods judgement regarding it. And it is through that submission to Gods judgement that we accept the death of Christ. We accept that we deserve what Christ took for us.

But we must remember that the Romans 7 experience must inevitably lead us to the Romans 8:1 truth, or we are not seeing as it is intended.

Reckon not yourself as a sinner, but reckon yourself as dead to sin, and alive to God, through jesus Christ.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The punishment for sin has been paid, therefore if we are in Christ, we are no longer sinners.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

If we were not clean, we could not have the Spirit of God dwell within.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[BlessedinHim]

Calvinism isnt all correct either.

[Beth O]

I may be confused at your point. I apologize if I am. Are you saying since you have been saved you no longer sin?

When saved we are born again of the Spirit, yes alive in Christ, dead to sin. Praise the Lord!! We still have flesh and must choose to live by the Spirit. They are contrary to each other flesh and Spirit. When we miss the mark this is where repentance comes in.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

From Way of Life Encyclopedia

Lessons about the Flesh in the Christian Life (Gal 5:16-24): 1. The flesh is still present after salvation. The Christian has two natures: flesh and Spirit (Gal 5:16). 2. The flesh is the enemy within (Gal 5:17). God leaves the flesh within the Christian to teach us to walk by faith, not by sight. 3. The flesh is never eradicated in this life. There is no sinless perfection in the Christian life (1Joh 1:8,10). An experience of spirit baptism or entire sanctification is never given as the solution to the problem of sin (1Pet 2:1-2). 4. The Christian can choose to walk in either the flesh or the Spirit (Gal 5:16). 5. There are two aspects of the flesh: position (Gal 5:24) and practice (Gal 5:25). Also see Col 3:9-10 vs. Eph 4:22-24; and Rom 8:9 vs. Rom 8:12-13.

How Is the Flesh Overcome? 1. The flesh is subdued by yielding to and walking with the indwelling Spirit (Gal 5:16). 2. The flesh is subdued by not minding it but by minding the things of the Spirit (Rom 8:5). 3. The flesh is subdued by not sowing to it but by sowing to the Spirit (Gal 6:8). 4. The flesh is subdued by not making provision for it (Rom 13:14).


From Way of the Life Encyclopedia: Repentance

Repentance is a supernatural work of God whereby a responsive sinner, being convicted by the Holy Spirit of his rebellion, turns to God from his sinful ways and trusts Jesus Christ for salvation (2Tim 2:25; Joh 16:8; Ac 11:18; 26:20). Repentance means more than sorrow or regret or despair or grief. It is also more than mere confession or acknowledgement of sin. Pharaoh, Saul, and Judas did all of that but did not exercise Bible repentance (Ex 9:27; 1Sam 15:24; 24:17; 26:21; Mat 27:3-4). Bible repentance means a turning to God and a change of mind toward God that results in a change of life (Mat 3:1-2; Luk 5:32; Luk 13:1-3; Luk 18:13; Act 2:38; Act 5:31; Act 17:30; Act 20:21; Act 26:20; 2Pet 3:9). There are two types of repentance: (1) Repentance for unbelievers for salvation (Luk 13:3; Act 2:38). (2) repentance for believers from daily sin (Rev 2:5,16,21-22).

[LaMontre]

I may be confused at your point. I apologize if I am. Are you saying since you have been saved you no longer sin?

In Christ, I cannot sin, if I could, I could not be in Christ. As I say, the Romans 7 condition, leads naturally to the Romans 8:1 truth for the believer. The positional truth of being In Christ is that there is no condemnation. Sin brings about condemnation.


When saved we are born again of the Spirit, yes alive in Christ, dead to sin. Praise the Lord!! We still have flesh and must choose to live by the Spirit. They are contrary to each other flesh and Spirit. When we miss the mark this is where repentance comes in.

Yes, we acknowledge our indivdual acts of sin, but that is not what "keeps us saved". In fact, were it not for the presence of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, we would never acknowledge our sin, and would find no place for repentance. The point of the thread is eternal security; if I am somehow "no longer in Christ" when I fail, then I cannot be said to be eternally secure.

We are positionally righteous through the imputation of Christs righteousness to us. So even though we sin, it is truly as if we never have. Otherwise, God is being unjust in justifying us, and the Holy Spirit would have to leave and return as soon as we repent. See my point? God cannot bear sin, and so it is truly Christ who is our representative to God, and from the perspective, we are sinless.

This is the basis of our security.

[Beth O]

See my point?

This is the basis of our security.

I wish I could. :scratch

I understand that we depend on Christs righteousness for our eternal life. That doesn't mean we no longer sin. We must depend on Christs righteousness because we are sinners. When we sin this doesn't mean we lose our salvation or are no longer in Christ. If sin persists and we are unrepentant then our fellow ship with God is lacking. I do believe OSAS.

[LaMontre]

I understand that we depend on Christs righteousness for our eternal life. That doesn't mean we no longer sin.

Practically; that is, in our experience, we sin.

Positionally; that is, in Christ, we cannot sin.

Our repentance of a particular sin is a result of Gods grace, not a work of our own effort.

It is by Gods grace that we recognize the sin, and it is by Gods grace that we find forgiveness. Repentance is not a work.

Our santification is both positional (complete) and progressive. We are "predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29).

There is Gods perspective (complete in Him; Col 2:10), and there is our experience (Be ye Holy; 1 Pet 1:15-16).

[Beth O]

Practically; that is, in our experience, we sin.

Positionally; that is, in Christ, we cannot sin.

Our repentance of a particular sin is a result of Gods grace, not a work of our own effort.

It is by Gods grace that we recognize the sin, and it is by Gods grace that we find forgiveness. Repentance is not a work.

Our santification is both positional (complete) and progressive. We are "predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29).

There is Gods perspective (complete in Him; Col 2:10), and there is our experience (Be ye Holy; 1 Pet 1:15-16).

We may be saying the same thing in a different way. I look at the two natures of a born again believer. Flesh and Spirit. We were born again by the Spirit. When we are walking in the Spirit we don't sin, and it is through the strength of Christ that we walk in the Spirit. When we do sin, (flesh) the Holy Spirit convicts us to repentance. So yes of course all of the Glory goes to God.