View Full Version : Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?
September 16th, 2009, 03:29 PM
I think ClosetLady was simply pointing out the dangers of lumping all in the same class. The Lord knows his own.
September 16th, 2009, 03:32 PM
I think ClosetLady was simply pointing out the dangers of lumping all in the same class. The Lord knows his own.
I hope I was clear in my post, but just in case I wasn't, I agree. :hat
September 16th, 2009, 03:54 PM
Throughout my life, I had said the sinner's prayer over and over hundreds of times...frustrated with myself, doubting myself, 'did I mean it enough?' or 'was I sincere enough'? and asking Jesus 'please don't forget me' and 'please don't give up on me'...which He was faithful to answer, snapping me back into an awareness of my own mortality and my standing before Him in Oct. '08 after a "wake-up" call (tragedy). He got my attention away from myself and made me see, as if for the first time, what He had done for me at the Cross. I stopped running away from Him and embraced Him, and I cling to Him every day even when doubt still strikes. He is Mighty to Save, and He saves to the uttermost. He is worthy. :yeah
September 16th, 2009, 03:55 PM
I don't think Dan or anyone else is insinuating that a prayer said at a young age is not as valid or as genuine as someone who has struggled with their faith and come to Christ later in life, not at all. It's too bad some of you feel that way...the Bible doesn't even say anything remotely close to that and I would hate to think that there are true Bible believing Christians on this board that actually think that way, I truly think it's a misunderstanding:hug
I do know though that there is a growing percentage of people who are falling for the "easy believism" and watered down Gospel and who's souls are at risk, these people believe that because they said a simple sinners prayer that they're all of a sudden destined for Heaven. There have been a few good videos posted up within the last couple of days that address this exact problem...one that comes to mind is one by John McArthur's take on the Purpose Driven Life where he mentions the brief and watered down version of the Gospel and people are eating this garbage up! I wonder how many copies of that book have been sold since it came out :thinking......exxxxxactly my point.
There are seeker friendly churches out there that refuse to even mention the word "sin" and "repentence" in the same sentence for fear of chasing people away! The Word of God is shaprer than any 2 edged sword, of COURSE there's going to be those that don't want to hear it but just because someone doesn't want to hear it, doesn't mean we should water it down to make them happy.
There are thousands sitting in Purpose driven churches who are led in what I call "God loves you" prayers where they pray a prayer acknowledging Jesus and invite Him into their heart but they're missing the meat and potatos of the Gospel, these people never hear sin, repentence, deliverence, cross, bloodshed, Hell, etc.....it's all about God loves you, invite Him into your life and see how He richly blesses you.
All these people above are risking their souls and someone needs to share the FULL and TRUE Gospel with them.
Salvation isn't dependent upon your age, Salvation isn't dependent on whether you remember the exact date you became saved - God doesn't ask us at the Gate what day we got saved (I don't remember but I know I'm saved and that's all that matters), Salvation depends on your faith in God's grace alone, your Salvation depends upon understanding that Jesus died and rose again for your sins so that you would be washed white as snow. Repentence can still be acknowledged by young children, we just use different words to explain it to them.
Please rest assured brothers and sisters that nobody's "path to Salvation" is anymore better or real than the next persons:hug. I envy (not sinfully though...lol) those who found Christ at a young age and grew up knowing Him and living for Him.....I would give my right arm to have had it that way and would never wish on my worst enemy what I went through to come to Christ and fully submit to Him but my path is no more real and no better than yours, I just would have enjoyed a little less discipline from our Lord...lol, we are saved none-the-less, prodigals and young believers all the same:hug
September 16th, 2009, 04:17 PM
I hope I was clear in my post, but just in case I wasn't, I agree. :hat
Yeah I hear what you are saying as well and yeah I think what the original person that started this particular conversation was just saying not to lump all young age sinner's prayer people together as someone else said. But yea I agree with you and God knows which people that said the sinners prayer truly meant it.
I think to support your point that there are most definitely parents that forced their kids to walk down the aisle or repeat a prayer...... you can't force a kid to do that, they may not understand at that age as I did. Some even grow older and resent that their parents made them do that because they have since claimed no relationship with God, and in that case its fairly obvious that their young sinners prayer really didnt mean anything at all to them. I made my own decision at that age my teacher didnt force me I willingly went home after that interaction and got on my knees myself. :hat
September 16th, 2009, 05:04 PM
Please, please, please--let's stop with this belittling of those of us who have a REAL relationship with Jesus who said a prayer when we were young. .
Show me where I "belittled" anyone that has a real relationship with Christ.
I only pointed out the obvious. More people base their salvation on a prayer, rather than on Christ. For that reason, most confessing Christians in the US have no relationship with Christ. Many confessing US Christians deny truths in scripture for this reason.
I have family and friends that fall into this common way of thinking. My uncle says he was saved at the prayer, but has now become a universalist, thinking the bible is wrong in some parts. He's not a backsider.. Like so many confessing belivers, he just denies the truths of scripture.
This is not a minority of believers.. Read the barna polls sometime. 50% of "believers" in the US deny the bible is true. Please tell me how they can deny the Words of Christ and still be saved..
Dan~~~> rejoices at, and with anyone who has a relationship with Christ, reguardless of age
September 16th, 2009, 06:04 PM
Well I guess after prayer and some reading of the word of God I still come to same conclusion I came to before. I don't mean to offend anyone on this board but I don't see what you see...I guess I am a oneness Pentecostal and I believe what they believe. I've looked and looked and prayed and prayed and keep getting lead back to the same thing. Jesus is the only God that I know and if that makes me a heretic then I'm a heretic. I believe that the apostles taught what they taught and it is not up for argument, you either do it or you don't. It is our choice to accept it or walk away and I feel that I have to accept it. I want you guys to know that no matter what your opinion of me is I will love you and always pray for you that you may walk closer to the Lord than you ever have before and that the Lord will keep you in these dark times. Jesus bless you.
November 8th, 2009, 09:39 PM
I need help. I am a youth sponsor at my church and one of the youth (a 12th grade student) believes that a person can loose their salvation. She sent me an email (that I have cut an paste below). She wants to debate/discuss this as she firmly believes that salvation can be lost and I do not.
As you can see from what I have posted below (the entire email), it's a little intimidating, and I don't know were to start.
This girl really does have a heart for God and she studies her bible and always interacts, etc.....
Well....here is the email. Thanks in advance to all who can help....
"I'll put the verses directly into this e-mail but I would suggest looking at some of the verses around the ones I give, to understand context. I believe that's very important. I won't give you all of the verses because I know that can be overwhelming. Just know that I have more. If you still want to see them after this e-mail, I will gladly send them or show them to you. Whatever you want. All verses are in red.
First of all, I'm going to quote someone I agree with completely, "I believe our salvation is a relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe we all stumble at times and sin. I also believe that when we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us back to a closer walk. If we confess our sin we repair our relationship and everything is okay, but if we refuse to repent and confess and continue to sin our relationship will deteriorate, at some point we grow cold and our relationship is ruined. Paul called this turning from the faith, shipwrecked faith, etc... Paul even said if we don't hold fast then we have believed in vain."
So, here we go. I'll try to explain as much as I can here and if there's anything unclear, just ask about it in person. Is that cool with you?
Why I believe in Once saved NOT always saved:
1 Corinthians 15:2-- "By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the world I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain," (emphasis added)
1 Corinthians 6:9-10-- "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
There's something I want to explain or point out about these verses. Who is Paul pointing out? Sinners. But what kind of sinners? Those that are living in sin, it is their lifestyle. They are repeating unrepentant sin. The world still has a pull on us after we have accepted Jesus as our Savior. We are very much capable of choosing to sin in these ways despite that we chose God.
1 John 2:3-6 -- "We know that we have come to know him IF we obey his commands. The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." (emphasis added)
I know I showed this verse to you earlier. You said earlier there is a difference between knowing about Jesus and knowing Jesus. You're correct. This verse is specifically talking about knowing Jesus, not about him. Those people knew who Jesus was but did not accept him as their Savior. The truth (Jesus, as he is the way, the truth, and the life... you know that) is not in them. I emphasized the if's because it shows that something is conditional, meaning you have to DO something. Something has to happen first for it to be fulfilled. We know that people are Christians by their actions and that is walking as Jesus did.
Matthew 18:22-35-- Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.  "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.  As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.  Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.  "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.'  The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.  "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.  "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'  "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt.  When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.  "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.  Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'  In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.  "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Jesus says this is a parable about a believer. That's really important. "I guess the question then is what does it mean that the Father would turn some of us over to the jailers to be tortured until we pay for our sins? I can't believe that people will be tortured in heaven. Nor do I believe that if God has forgiven our sins past, present and future that He will at some later date call us wicked. God says that when He forgives us He will never remember those sins again. Jesus says that His Father will treat us this way unless we also forgive our brothers. Now remember He is speaking to and about believers, who as the story shows were already forgiven. So how do you explain that passage? Doesn't it show that if we turn from God and become bitter and unforgiving He will cut us loose? I think it does. That is not to say that we lose our salvation, but by our actions and the hardness of our heart we can give it up."
Hebrews 10:26-27-- "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
This verse is talking about a Bible which we can see because of the, "we have received the knowledge of the truth." Even the sacrifice for sins denotes that it is about believers. When believers deliberately sin, Jesus' death means nothing to them and they become enemies of God.
1 John 2:15 -- "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
How many Christians get sucked into what the world has to "offer"? I know you know this, you've experienced this. We can't serve two masters, Jesus even said that.
John 15:1-6 -- "1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
I'd rather explain this one in person. It's... lengthy. At this point, actually, I'm just going to give you the verses. This is getting long and I don't want to discourage you from reading this!
2 Peter 1:8-11 --
8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Matthew 24:9-13 -- " 9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Hebrews 2:1-3 -- "1We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him."
Hebrews 3:12-14 -- "12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first."
Hebrews 6:4-6 -- "4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
Hebrews 6:11-12 -- "11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised."
James 4:4 -- " 4You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."
James 5:19-20 -- "19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
Revelation 22:18-19 -- " 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
Luke 12:42-46 -- " 42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers."
Matthew 25:1-13 -- " 1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'
9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'
10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."
1 John 1:9-10 -- "9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."
This one I will explain. John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote this to Christians. Why would God command Christians to confess their sins and then say that He would forgive them if they (sins) had already been forgiven when they were saved?
Philemon 1:23-24 -- " 23Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, sends you greetings. 24And so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas and Luke, my fellow workers."
This is setting the stage up for the next verses... pay attention to Demas.
2 Timothy 4:9-10 -- " 9Do your best to come to me quickly, 10for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia."
Though this does not prove that Demas was then lost, it shows that a person can walk away.
Revelation 2:4-7 -- "4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."
Romans 11:17-21 -- " 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."
Ezekiel 18:23-28 -- "
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die."
Hebrews 10:35-39 -- "35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[a] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."[b] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved."
2 Peter 2:20-21 - "20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
1 John 2:24-25 -- " 24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life."
Well, I think I'll stop there. Please know that I have more. I'll gladly look at any that you wish to show me.
I'll talk to you soon."
November 8th, 2009, 09:55 PM
I need help. I am a youth sponsor at my church and one of the youth (a 12th grade ......"
Dawn - I moved your post into this rather large thread because all the answers you could possibly need are contained herein. :hat
November 8th, 2009, 10:20 PM
This is something that came out a few months ago on this very subject. I thought it would be good to place it here to help any that might have any lingering questions about OSAS'ed.
The Omega Letter Intelligence Digest
Vol: 19 Issue: 24 - Friday, October 24, 2008
Proof Text Without Context
I received an email from a member regarding yesterday's OL, "God's Grace" that asked: "Jack, what makes you so completely sure of your eternity in light of so many confusing scriptures that "seem" to link eternal life with obedience (Galatians 6:8)?"
("For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. ")
I replied to the email but was led to expand my answer and post it as an OL, so I suspect that there must be others among our membership also struggling with the same question(s).
The arguments presented by the opponents of eternal security, derided as "Once Saved, Always Saved" (or OSAS) are indeed Scriptural. Just look at all the Scripture that they come up with to prove their point.
For example, Matthew 6:14-15. "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
In context, Jesus is teaching His Disciples the Lord's Prayer. Having just presented it to them, He was explaining what to pray and why. Matthew 6:12 - "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors."
That is commonly rendered, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive the trespasses of others", but in either case, what the Lord is explaining is WHAT the prayer asks. "Forgive us the same way we forgive others."
The opponents of OSAS claim this means if we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us, and therefore, by not forgiving trespasses committed against you, you can lose your salvation, ipso facto, OSAS is a false doctrine.
First, Jesus is not addressing the redeemed Church, but His Jewish disciples. Doctrinally, the Lord's Prayer is not a Christian prayer, but a Jewish one.
The Kingdom of God is a Judaic concept that refers to the return of the time of the Judges when Israel had no King but God, Who ruled directly through His prophets.
The Jews await the Kingdom of God; the Church awaits the Kingdom of Heaven. The Old Covenant with Israel is that Israel will be the center of the world, the seat of the Lord's government during the Millennial Kingdom.
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. . . . And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. " (Isaiah 2:2,4)
The promise to the Church is different.
"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together. " (Romans 8:17)
'Joint-heirs' is a term to describe children being given equal inheritances.
God's relationship to Israel is likened to that of a spouse; Christ's to the Church likened to that of a bridegroom and bride as heirs to the Father's inheritance.
Everything Jesus said in His public ministry is of use to the Church, but not everything He said was addressed to the Church. Much of what He said was addressed, for example, specifically to the Pharisees of Israel.
We can therefore draw lessons from the parallels, but we must do so in context.
Another verse that is often cited as evidence that one can lose one's salvation is Romans 8:1, which, oddly enough, is also one of the most powerful proof texts for proving eternal security.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
This argument concludes that the saved Christian who later falls back into his old habits, the 'carnal' Christian, is walking after the flesh and not after the Spirit and so this verse teaches conditional salvation.
If you are walking after the Spirit, there is no condemnation. If you are walking after the flesh, then there is.
In context, Paul has just exhaustively argued in Romans 7 in favor of eternal security, explaining the dual nature of man, how often we fall short, how we do what we hate while knowing it is wrong, all the time hating ourselves for sinning.
Paul says, "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. . . . For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
Having explained the exact nature of the conflict with the old man experienced by every Christian, Paul cries out in despair, "O wretched man that I am, Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" before answering his own question and confirming that sin is a continuing part of a saved Christian's earthly existence:
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
In context, Romans 7 teaches that the struggle with sin is evidence one IS walking after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 is the promise that there is no condemnation for such a one who struggles with sin.
What does it mean when one DOESN'T struggle with sin? Think it through. There are but two answers.
Either one isn't saved and remains dead on one's sins. Or one has died and gone on to his eternal destiny.
In context, Romans 8:1 can have but one logical meaning, then. But using it out of context to prove one's grip on salvation is tenuous is still Scriptural since Romans 8:1 is Scripture.
A proof text devoid of context is a pretext. But it's Scriptural.
I am certain of my eternal destiny irrespective of my current state of sinlessness or vice-versa. Jesus didn't save me on one day, for one day -- and then leave the rest up to me. That flies in the face of both logic and experience, even before one turns to Scripture for confirmation.
I already knew before I read Romans 7 that I am in the same place Paul described. If I have to maintain my own salvation, I'm already lost. Logic and experience confirm that, as well. If eternal security is a false doctrine, then salvation is beyond my reach.
Yet, as we said at the outset, there are many strong Scriptural arguments to the contrary. But there can be only one truth. If salvation is conditional upon works, then God cannot be just, if 'just' means the same thing as 'fair'.
Skeptics claim God isn't fair because He would send somebody to hell, but that's nonsense. People choose heaven or hell -- God simply honors their choice. But when it comes to salvation by works, it really isn't fair or just.
What we're actually discussing are two different issues. One is salvation. Salvation is a free gift. The Scriptures are uncompromising on that point.
The other issue is that of living a Christian life. The two are NOT the same.
A person can come to Christ on his deathbed and go to the same heaven the Apostles went to. I think we all agree that is true.
So this guy, having never done a single thing for Christ in his lifetime, having never sacrificed a thing for his faith, having never led a person to Christ, or done an act of charity, and more importantly, he was not tempted to sin after salvation because he died.
But he goes to heaven.
Meanwhile, Joe Christian is saved at seven. He lives a sacrificial life for Christ, leads many people to the Lord, and does everything you wish you did when you take stock of what you've done for Christ.
But then, some personal catastrophe hits Joe, like it does you and me, and for some reason, this time, Satan gets a hold of ol' Joe for a time, and Joe goes off on a three-week bender.
Before Joe has a chance to come back to his senses, he gets killed in a car accident.
Both trusted in Christ -- Joe at the beginning of his life -- the other guy at the end. But Joe's many good works are of no consequence -- he goes to hell. The guy on his deathbed's many bad works are of no consequence, he goes to heaven.
In both cases, they trusted Christ. Joe had the Christian life part down pat, until he hit a rough patch. So if OSAS is a false doctrine, then Jesus let Joe down just when Joe needed Him most.
The real answer to the question, "How do I know that I am truly saved" is found in another question. "Who do you trust for your salvation?"
If you trust in the Cross AND in your own abilities to subsequently live a sinless life, the Scriptures say that is the standard against which you will be judged.
Despite great swelling words of protest to the contrary, you aren't trusting Christ. You're trusting you.
The Apostle Paul knew he couldn't be trusted with his salvation. Romans 7 is a litany of spiritual failures. Without some sense of eternal security, the Christian life would be a fearful, nervous existence, where one was never sure where he stood with the Lord.
If one can sin one's way out of salvation, which sin is it? Having a TV? Smoking? Cheating on taxes? Having a lustful thought? Road rage? Divorce?
Instead, the Lord says, "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." (Matthew 11:29-30)
That sounds like a promise I can trust.
OSAS is Biblical....you have to take it in it's context and not single certain aspects of it and make it say what you want it to say. Trusting in Jesus Christ is where our Salvation lies...not in ourselves or others.
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