Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[tekton]

Matthew 7:15-23

15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

That begs the question what is "the will of the Father"? And is it possible to be saved and not do the will of the Father?

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40 Plainly tells us what the will of our Father is "that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life". It's very simple those that "believe" are saved and have eternal life. It is they that "do the will of the Father" thus it is impossible to be saved and not do the will of the father.
You do realize that in the verses you quoted that Jesus is talking about false prophets and not true believers don't you? Those that preach and teach in His name but have never believed in their heart unto salvation.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[yogi3939]

Here is a thought....

Is it possible that the OSAS doctrine is true but our heavenly reward is based on works, or lack thereof? I seem to remember reading a bible passage that supports this idea but cannot remember where.

I do believe that if we are sincere in our acceptance of salvation but later give in to weaknesses of the flesh that we will still reap the reward of salvation, we just may not live in the high rent district of heaven when we get there. But lets face it, even the "slums" of heaven will be infinitely better than the lake of fire.

[twinters]

What about this: Someone is saved. Someone is on fire for the Lord. For "x" amount of time their faith and their life are perfectly intertwined. And then *BOOM*, something happens. Maybe someone dies, something terrible happens, I don't know but something happens. The person then turns away from God. They cease their prayer. They cease their church activities. They might even curse God.

Are they still saved? Did they not turn their back on salvation? If they died w/o coming back to Jesus, would they end up in Heaven?

I know this is a foreign concept to a lot of people but I've had the misfortune of seeing this in three different people in my life, one of them is a family member and it almost happened to me (but I never stepped over that ledge) after 2 very painful tragedies many moons ago. These were/are saved people. There's no question to that. But whether we like it or not, we can still walk away.

I have no position to stand on here. It's simply a question. Once saved, can you walk away and thus out of salvation? This is different than claiming to be saved and then committing a murder (as in malicious killing of another human being). I would argue that the person wouldn't be saved in the first place since anyone who had turned their life over to Jesus wouldn't kill someone else without serious justification (i.e. home invasion, protecting family, etc). And we're not referring to someone backsliding a year into their new Christian lifestyle. We're talking 10, 15, 20, 30 year relationship with the Lord and then something happens and they just walk away. Maybe it's overnight, maybe it's immediate. But it does happen.

[Stucky]

A true believer cannot sin, which His Bride touched on. That does not mean we will not commit acts/thoughts that are "sinful" acts/thoughts, but rather, in Christ, there is no more law to hold our acts/thoughts up to, hence no condemnation. So, if a believer slips and lies, that lie is still "wrong" but it has no more power to separate us from God; there is no more condemnation for us in Christ because it is Christ Who lived the perfect life.

Wow, what a great statement. People keep overlooking that when they JUDGE OTHERS. I keep telling people that believer's still sin till the day they die but the sins penalty has already been paid by Jesus and does not effect their salvation. I believe that is what's meant by OSAS. (JIMHO)

[carolina_guy]

What about this: Someone is saved. Someone is on fire for the Lord. For "x" amount of time their faith and their life are perfectly intertwined. And then *BOOM*, something happens. Maybe someone dies, something terrible happens, I don't know but something happens. The person then turns away from God. They cease their prayer. They cease their church activities. They might even curse God.

Are they still saved? Did they not turn their back on salvation? If they died w/o coming back to Jesus, would they end up in Heaven?

I know this is a foreign concept to a lot of people but I've had the misfortune of seeing this in three different people in my life, one of them is a family member and it almost happened to me (but I never stepped over that ledge) after 2 very painful tragedies many moons ago. These were/are saved people. There's no question to that. But whether we like it or not, we can still walk away.

I have no position to stand on here. It's simply a question. Once saved, can you walk away and thus out of salvation? This is different than claiming to be saved and then committing a murder (as in malicious killing of another human being). I would argue that the person wouldn't be saved in the first place since anyone who had turned their life over to Jesus wouldn't kill someone else without serious justification (i.e. home invasion, protecting family, etc). And we're not referring to someone backsliding a year into their new Christian lifestyle. We're talking 10, 15, 20, 30 year relationship with the Lord and then something happens and they just walk away. Maybe it's overnight, maybe it's immediate. But it does happen.

The seed sown on rocky soil received the word with joy but fell away when trials and tribulation came. There are also the tares that look like wheat for a while, but are separated from the wheat at harvest. Neither case is saved in the first place.

[twinters]

The seed sown on rocky soil received the word with joy but fell away when trials and tribulation came. There are also the tares that look like wheat for a while, but are separated from the wheat at harvest. Neither case is saved in the first place.

That's a pretty wide net to cast though. That's essentially saying that you (and I don't mean you as Carolina Guy, just "you" in general) know a person's heart and what they did or didn't do between the moment they were saved and the moment they walked away. I'm going to use my brother-in-law as an example. His works reflected his faith. He was about as hot for God as any one person that I have ever known. I have no question about him accepting Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. He knew that Jesus was the only way. He never wavered for 15+ years. Everything about his life was submission to God.

Then it happened. The same event happened for me. It was crushing. And literally overnight:


The words that rang so true for me were suddenly empty. I couldn't even feel Him there anymore. I was completely alone and was shouldering the most horrific pain one could imagine. I wanted to die as well. I needed Him more than ever at this hour and He wasn't there for me despite my pleas for help.

He watched his mom waste away from breast cancer. He lived through his brother dying in a horrible work accident. His faith didn't waver then, not even once or the slightest bit, and he turned to God each time. But then this happened (and I'm sorry, I don't want to talk about "this" because it's equally painful for me to this day). And almost overnight that light was dimmed and now extinguished. I get the "rocky soil" thing but that doesn't apply here. I can say that with confidence because the situation is close to me. I witnessed it.

[Blood Bought]

What about this: Someone is saved. Someone is on fire for the Lord. For "x" amount of time their faith and their life are perfectly intertwined. And then *BOOM*, something happens. Maybe someone dies, something terrible happens, I don't know but something happens. The person then turns away from God. They cease their prayer. They cease their church activities. They might even curse God.

Are they still saved? Did they not turn their back on salvation? If they died w/o coming back to Jesus, would they end up in Heaven?

I know this is a foreign concept to a lot of people but I've had the misfortune of seeing this in three different people in my life, one of them is a family member and it almost happened to me (but I never stepped over that ledge) after 2 very painful tragedies many moons ago. These were/are saved people. There's no question to that. But whether we like it or not, we can still walk away.

I have no position to stand on here. It's simply a question. Once saved, can you walk away and thus out of salvation? This is different than claiming to be saved and then committing a murder (as in malicious killing of another human being). I would argue that the person wouldn't be saved in the first place since anyone who had turned their life over to Jesus wouldn't kill someone else without serious justification (i.e. home invasion, protecting family, etc). And we're not referring to someone backsliding a year into their new Christian lifestyle. We're talking 10, 15, 20, 30 year relationship with the Lord and then something happens and they just walk away. Maybe it's overnight, maybe it's immediate. But it does happen.

Hi.

Paul says 2 timothy 2:13 -- If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

I know we all love Ephesians 2:8-9, as it's beautiful in and of itself, but did you ever notice the word 'for' that begins verse 8. We are told why He is saving us by grace through faith...

Ephesians 2:4-9

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

He saves us by grace through faith so that in the ages to come, He will show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towards us.

Sad to say, we don't always appreciate the grace as it truely is. The depths of His mercy is really a wonder.

We are as good as sitting together in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus. We are essentialy His trophies, regardless of what we may think or feel. It begins about Him, and it goes onto and in eternal future about Him.

We'll all wish we suffered just a little bit more for Him.

[Jacinth]

Here is a thought....

Is it possible that the OSAS doctrine is true but our heavenly reward is based on works, or lack thereof? I seem to remember reading a bible passage that supports this idea but cannot remember where. :nod That is absolutely true:

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


I don't think there are any "low rent" districts of heaven :lol2
I think it may be a situation of ....I have more than enough money to live in life...more than I'll ever use...but there are other people who earned more than that.

[Kliska]

Paul and John are pretty clear on the matter;

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

As with Paul, who taught the same thing, I reiterate this does not mean we are to go out and do bad deeds so that grace may abound. The law is done away with as a measuring stick for believers (we've already been measured and found wanting); we now live by the Spirit, which is a lot easier but a lot harder...how's that for a paradox? Don't forget, for a true believer, it is Christ that God sees (and inspected), not us, not for our salvation anyway.

[bek1]

Hi.

Paul says 2 timothy 2:13 -- If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

I know we all love Ephesians 2:8-9, as it's beautiful in and of itself, but did you ever notice the word 'for' that begins verse 8. We are told why He is saving us by grace through faith...

Ephesians 2:4-9

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

He saves us by grace through faith so that in the ages to come, He will show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towards us.

Sad to say, we don't always appreciate the grace as it truely is. The depths of His mercy is really a wonder.

We are as good as sitting together in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus. We are essentialy His trophies, regardless of what we may think or feel. It begins about Him, and it goes onto and in eternal future about Him.

We'll all wish we suffered just a little bit more for Him.


Cool..so glad you posted II Tim. 2:13, as I think that is one of the most powerful verses to show that OSAS. Even in the case of one who's faith is weak, or even dead. "faithless" is the word used. He cannot disown Himself from us even then, because His Spirit resides in us as promised from the beginning of our new birth as a deposit guarenteeing our eternal life with Jesus.

And I agree that the passages that cause a great deal of confusion with OSAS, but refer to works are dealing with our reward, not salvation. These verses are always addressed to believers.