tom_roberts
May 23rd, 2007, 11:30 AM
Once saved always saved is a clear cut fact. It is undeniable. Those who believe otherwise are mistaken.
There are many verses when taken out of the immediate context and/or when taken out of the larger context would seem to indicate that one can lose their salvation. However that is not possible and all of those verse when taken in context can be understood.
The verse that you quote is one of the more difficult ones.
You were rather vague about what it is that you are looking for. Responding to these type of questions properly can be very time consuming. And the fact is that most people who start these threads already have their mind made up with regards to the doctrine and responding to them in detail winds up being a waste of time.
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thank you , as a few verses have confused me also and i was wondering how do scholars explain these verses? :idunno
1 Corinthians 9:26-27 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
John 15:1-2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Phil 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
LaMontre
May 23rd, 2007, 07:01 PM
thank you , as a few verses have confused me also and i was wondering how do scholars explain these verses? :idunno
1 Corinthians 9:27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Castaway is the focus term. If we look at the context, he is referring to being seen as a hypocrite, or as being rejected by them that hear him, not by God. Obviously we have seen many of this generation who have become castaways because they did NOT do as Paul suggested, and keep their carnal desires under control. After which, their preaching was not accepted, and even became useless for many years.
John 15:1-2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jesus is referring to coming to maturity in Him. That is, a person remaining in Him to maturity and bearing fruit. If that doesn't happen, we cannot ever say that a person was ever actually saved to begin with.
One such might be as this person;
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
When Jesus speaks of fruit, he is speaking of maturity. And fruit is something that we are to look for in order to "know" them.
Phil 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
The context explains the statement;
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Work out your own salvation because it is God in you who works to will and to do.....so we need not worry that one task is less or more important than another. Or that the preachers position is the one we should all aspire to. For all of a Christians life is a part of Gods will working in him/her (see also Rom 8:28 & 1 Cor 12:14-18).
And so he says....
Phi 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Phi 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Phi 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Hope that helps? :)
Grace and peace.
jgreen0227
May 25th, 2007, 04:08 AM
Brethren, open your eyes, hear with your ears, and set your hearts upon all that we write to you today for the Lord of hosts, the God of all flesh, even He, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the Ending of all things, He has commanded us what we must say. Alas! The words are many and the letter is long! And who is able to read it?
What is this rumor that we hear? What is this saying that is going around in the midst of the people? That God’s grace will excuse sin and allow the sinner to go unpunished? That the believer can do the very things he is forbidden to do by the Lord? And enjoy the pleasures of sin under the terms of grace as revealed from the Word of God? What is this strange doctrine? That salvation by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ is permanent even if the believer continues in sin? And that the work of grace by the blood of the Lamb will save him in his sins in the day of Christ? That salvation can never be lost because it is not of works? And so we can continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid these doctrines. He is furious. He will punish all men that have spread these words and have caused His people to err from the truth.
Even all the prophets that have deceived the people, prophesying falsely in the name of the Lord He shall punish. They have spoken a vision of their own heart and not out of the mouth of the Lord. They have said unto the people “the Lord had said you shall have peace; they said to everyone that walked after the imagination of his own heart, no evil shall come upon you for the Lord will be merciful since you have accepted Him as your Lord and Savior.” For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord and hath perceived and heard His words? Who has marked His words and heard it? Who has searched it out? Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets: I have heard what the prophets said, that corrupt my truth; I have not sent these men yet they spoke against my truth; I have not spoken to them these things they speak yet they prophesied. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that teach lies from their own heart and corrupt my truth? Though some of them have spoken in ignorance, yet they have caused my people to err; for if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned away from their sins, from the evil of their doings, and walk in all my statues as I have commanded them when they became saved through the atonement by the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that prophesy falsely to my people teaching them disobedience, and have caused them to err by their lies and by their lightness, saying that I will pardon them for their sins because they confess my name but refuse to depart from iniquity. Yet I did not send them nor commanded them to say these things. Thus saith the Lord: As for the prophets that teach these strange doctrines that have not come from me nor is found in my holy book, and as for the people that do hearken to them to continue in their sins after they have confessed my name as their Lord, I will even punish those prophets and their household, even with the people that have hearkened to them and their household also, if they do not repent but continue in this doctrine. I will not keep them from the wrath to come but shall deliver them to it, even their household with them. In the day that I come to remove my own from the earth, they shall remain and not partake of it. By so, they shall wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the Lamb during the troublous times that is to come, as many that are my sheep among the people. The anger of the Lord shall not return until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. He will vindicate these words that you have heard today. And for those that will not hearken to these words today, it shall be in the latter days that you shall fully consider them.
Brethren, today we speak unto many as not unto spiritual people but as unto babes in Christ, for we have written to you all in times past as unto spiritual people being fed with meat but many are not able to bear it. So we write to many today as unto men fed with milk, laying again the foundation of repentance upon which we build our good works unto Christ. God hates sin. He will always judge sin in any form. Is it not written in James 2:10 that whosoever that shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point is guilty of all ? That a single sin is enough to send a man to hell? Is this not what has been from the beginning, in the original story of man in the Garden of Eden where Adam sinned? He committed a single sin, the sin of disobedience whose foundation is unbelief. Yet, by this single sin, all men became separated from God. Physical death also came by this sin which then transferred to all men till today. Whosoever as written in James 2:10 above means anybody and everybody. Neither law nor grace can protect from judgment when sin is committed without confession, repentance and forsaking. God has promised punishment for sinners in both the old and new testaments. Are these things not also written in Matt 7:19-23, Rom 1:18-32, 2:1-6, 6:14-23, 8:12-13, 1 Corinth 6:9-11, and Gal 5:19-21?
Let us begin from the Old Testament. In Lev 18:20-30, God warned Israel that He would spue them out if they practiced the sins of the nations they were dispossessing. God did do this to Israel (2 Kings 17, 25) proving that God is no respecter of persons (Rom 2:11), and that there is no such thing as remaining in His favor when His people go into the same sins that unbelievers do. God would be unjust if He saved one group of people and judged another who were committing the same sins worthy of death. He does not do this to prove His righteousness and fairness to all men. God also told Moses He would blot out of the book of life any man who would sin against Him, and this He is under obligation to do regardless of anyone’s past standing in His love and grace (Ex 32:32-33), for He has spoken it. This is the rule under both law and grace.
It is written in Ezek 3:20-21 “ Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die…he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.” This scripture (verse 20) clearly says that a righteous man becomes unrighteous the moment he commits sin, for he needs to turn from his righteousness to commit sin. This scripture says his penalty is death (eternal separation from God in Hell) for he shall die for his sins. No sinner escapes the death penalty unless he repents and is forgiven of God (Mark 16:15, 1 John 1:9). Death was the penalty for original sin (Gen 2:17); and it is the present penalty for sin under grace as it always was under the law (Rom 1:29-32, 8:12-13, Gal 5:19-21). When one sins, he immediately incurs the death penalty of the broken law, and sincere repentance and forgiveness are necessary to avoid the penalty. There is no automatic work of grace offering forgiveness without repentance and putting away the sin by faith in the blood of Christ. The sin must first be confessed and more importantly forsaken. Is it not also written in Ezek 18:4 that “ the soul that sinneth, it shall die ”? Death is the penalty for sin, regardless of who the person or what connection with God he used to have (Gen 2:17, Ezek 3:18, 1 Corinth 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21). Anyone that dies in sin whether he knows the Lord or not will be lost. A righteous man cannot be a sinner. A sinner cannot be righteous if he continues in sin. Ezek 3:18 says clearly that a righteous man must turn away from his righteousness to commit sin so that he is no longer righteous. Is this not also written in Rom 6:20 that “ when ye were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness ?” meaning that a saint is no longer righteous the day he commits sin. Who is a servant of sin in the above scripture? Is it not written in John 8:34 wherein our Lord Jesus Christ himself said whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin ? So therefore, every sinner is unrighteous. The righteousness that God demands from born again Christians is same as he demands from Old Testament saints. For Rom 8:4 declares that Christ died so that we might fulfill the righteousness of the law . Are these things not also written in Matt 6:33, Acts 10:35, Rom 4:3-22, 6:13-20, 8:4, 1 Peter 2:24?
Now, let us go into the New Testament. It is written in Matt 7:21-23 “ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity “. This scripture clearly declares that many that have confessed and done great works for the Lord will be lost because they work iniquity of some kind. Sin is hidden in them is some form. No person merely professing faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning work on the cross will be saved in the end if he does not continue to do the will of the Father. Is this not what this scripture says? And are these things not also written in James 1:19-27, 1 Pet 4:18, and Heb 12:14? Again, we say unto you by the word of the Lord that a man cannot be a saint and sinner or holy and sinful at the same time (Rom 6:20, 8:13). As the scripture above hath said, “to do all the commandments of God” is the acid test after becoming born again. When a man receives Christ as his Lord and Savior by confessing and forsaking his sins, he is forgiven and he becomes righteous, holy, and saved on the spot, instantly. If he dies at that moment, he goes directly to heaven. But if he does continue to live in this world after becoming born again, he must live without sin in any form. This can only be attained by obeying all the commandments of God, for as it is written in 1 John 3:4 “ sin is the transgression of the law ” and this is the only definition of sin. Anything that is contrary to what the Word of God commands is somehow sinful. God is so just, righteous, and kind, that when a man becomes born again He does not leave him comfortless; for he is also given a measure of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9, Eph 4:7) so that he can continue in a life of holiness and purity unto God. This is the power over sin. This, he does not have while he was an unbeliever. Every born again believer has a measure of the Spirit in them for it was impossible to become born again without having a measure of the Spirit (Rom 8:9). God would not require men to live above sin after becoming born again without giving the power to do so because He is just in all His ways. So then, with the power of the Holy Spirit in you, how come you say you still commit sin, and more so, you do not know you are doing so?
Therefore, laying again the foundation of repentance, how then is a man justified before God? It is written in James 2:20-26 “ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only… 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” It is also written in Eph 2:8-10 “ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Examining the two scriptures above at first will sound contradictory to a new born again believer; for the first scripture clearly says that a man is justified by faith and works (verse 24) while the second says that a man is saved by faith and not by works. It is also written In Rom 3:24-25, 4:1-25, 5:1, Gal 2:16, and Gal 3:24 that justification is by faith. So is the bible contradictory? No, for it is written, the word of the Lord is perfect converting the soul . Hear counsel and receive knowledge as these scriptures are explained.
Eph 2:8-9 above states that a man is not saved by works. Firstly, after Adam, all men died and became separated from God eternally. Nothing man could do and no obedience he could attain whatsoever was able to justify him before a holy God. This was the predicament of man before Christ came. He just could not pay for His sins for he did not have what was required i.e. innocent blood of a man, not beast (Heb 2:14-18). This is what Christ did on the cross. He paid the ransom for man so that his sins can be forgiven him. That man could not pay for his own sins and that Christ did pay for all his sins is the meaning of grace. Grace is an unmerited act of mercy and favor from God to man, in cleansing him of his sins. Being saved by the atonement simply means that a man’s sins are forgiven and he is declared righteous before God at that moment in time. Again, being saved by grace and not of works is in the fact that no amount of works or morals can wash man’s sins away. It just could not be done. This is the meaning of grace. Anytime a man is forgiven of his sins by God, they are washed away and forgotten completely. This act of washing away is the grace. Man did not have to work for it for he could not attain it with works. When a man is saved, what is he saved from? He is saved from the consequence of sin which is death. This is why his sins have to be washed away so he does not die or become separated from God. Now after his sins are washed away, he becomes justified and holy but what happens thereafter if he sins again? If he does sin again, he must be forgiven his sins if he confesses them else he will suffer death. This he must do by confessing and forsaking them.
Now, forsaking of his sins is the act of works that is required of every man. He must turn away from his sins completely so that he does not suffer the death penalty again. He is already saved the first time by faith and not by works, by confessing his sins and believing in the atonement. This is the justification and saved by faith as in Eph 2:8. But thereafter, he must turn away from his sins by working. Is this not also written in Phil 2:12 that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling ? How can God tell us to work out our salvation when we are already saved by his grace? And he did use the word “work” as in James 2:24. How can God who is always true command us to work out our salvation if we do not need to work it since we have been saved by grace? Brethren, you indeed need to work out your salvation. That we are saved by grace through the atonement does not mean we will remain saved unto the end of days. This is what God meant by commanding us to work out our salvation. It is an act of works after you are saved. After becoming born again, you need works to remain saved. These works is simply living according to the written word of God and obeying all His commandments. It does not add to your salvation by doing it though it builds up rewards for us in heaven, but it nullifies your salvation by not doing it, i.e. by not doing it, you will be living contrary to the word of God.
It is also clear in Gen 22 that Abraham proved his faith in God when he was asked to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. It was faith that led him to this act of obedience (James 2:23). Had he refused to obey, it would have demonstrated that he had no faith in God and His Word. It is also clear that this act of faith and workswas not his initial justification by faith. His initial justification by faith was about 40 to 50 years before offering Isaac (Gen 12:1-4, 15:16, Rom 4:1-6). His act of obedience was a demonstration of faith and works to maintain justification before God. Therefore, faith is only made perfect with works and not by itself. Is this not also written in James 2:14? That what doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him ? This proves beyond doubt that faith alone by itself cannot keep a man saved unto the end. He needs works to remain saved. Apostle Paul concluded the whole matter: that a man’s works is the demonstration of his faith in God.
Having made known to you all these things from the word of God, the bible still abounds with numerous commands (1,050 in the New testament alone) and warnings of punishment for those who return to sin. These make it clear that most of all the promises of God in the scriptures are conditional and all men must meet God’s conditions to be blessed. God is not obliged to save any man that continues in sin without repentance and forsaking. By giving us Christ and the Holy Spirit, He gave us all and we can live without sin as believers. It is very possible to live without sin. This is what God requires, so it is possible. It has been done in the past by God’s Apostles, and it is being done by many spirit-filled Christians all over the world today. If any believer accidentally commits sin after been born again, he must repent and turn from sin again or he incurs the death penalty like all other rebels (1 John 1:9, 2:1-2). No man can commit sin and not be a servant of sin (John 8:34). No man can sin and not have to pay the death penalty for sin (Gen 2:17, Ezek 18:4, Rom 8:12-13, Gal 5:19-21, 6:7-8). No born again believer who lives or dies in sin will be saved (Matt 7:19-23, Rom 1:29-32, 8:1-13, 1 Corinth 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21, Col 3:5-10). No man who commits sinas in Gal 5:19-21will ever inheritthe kingdom of God unless he confesses and puts them out of his life. If any man claim otherwise and say he can be saved and yet continue in sin, and say he will partake of the rapture, on that day of the trumpets shall the Lord judge him when he is left behind and then shall he know that he has erred from the truth and shall acknowledge the Word of the Lord to be right and true. According to this word that the Lord has given us todayto say and write to you all, these things shall be. We also put you all in remembrance concerning the last letter of our Lord Jesus Christ to the church in Laodicea as written in Rev 3:16, whence He promised to spue the believers in this church out of His mouth because of their lukewarmness. Why would our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of the church and the Savior of it spue believers like a vomit out of His mouth if this were not to be done? If He indeed saved us by His grace through His blood, which He did and we all believe, likewise we must believe Him also in that He will spue out lukewarm Christians as a vomit, an astonishment, and a perpetual shame.
Now, we know there are some believers amongst you that still struggle with sin today. Our Lord in His mercies is calling on you today to turn away from them and forsake them. Do you say in your heart how can this be possible? Now here is how: It is written in 1John 3:9 that “ Whoever has been born of God does not commit sin, for His seed remains in him; and he CANNOT sin, because he has been born of God .” The seed of God is His word by which a man is born again (1 Peter 1:23). This idea is VERY SIMPLE. The simplicity is that as long as you remain in harmony with the seed, or the Word of God, you cannot sin. One who is born again and is devoted to obeying the bible and refuses to sin cannot break the commandments of God. The reason given here for not being able to sin is that “His” (God’s) seed (Word of God) remains (abides) in him. That is, the born again person refuses to transgress the commandments of God and commit sin (because he knows them). AS LONG AS THIS CONSECRATION REMAINS, HE WILL BE UNABLE TO SIN. If he eventually grows cold in his love for the Lord, ceases to pray and CONTINUE in fellowship with the Lord through His Word, then he will be overcome again and he will commit sin by transgressing the Word of God. Please read1 John 2:1-5, 3:6-9, 2 Peter 1:5-10. This is the light and understanding you need.
Now that our Lord has sent us again to testify to all these things written in His word, all men are without excuse. He has commanded us to warn all men to turn away from sin; for many professing believers shall be left behind at the rapture because of sin and disobedience to God’s commandments. Behold, we have already told you. Now, strive not to be among them. If any man loves the Lord and claims to belong to Him, he will keep the words of this epistle and our Father will love him, and keep Him from the hour of temptation which shall come upon the entire world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold the Lord comes quickly; hold fast to the truth which you have heard and keep them to the end, so that no man take thy crown. And whosoever does not obey the words of this teaching does not love the Lord and he shall not escape the wrath to come, for all the words which you have heard are not ours, but the Lord’s who sent us. Grace and peace be to you all. Amen.
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