Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[dmarkham10]

How do osas explain 2nd Peter 20-23? Also, at what point do I lose my ability to choose life or death? It is a complete cop-out to say that people were never saved. I do believe it is difficult to lose your salvation, but I do believe it is possible. I don't find anywhere in scripture where God takes away our ability to choose or where we willing give up this choice. I believe that osas doctrine is very dangerous. I know this,if I am wrong it does not matter, if the osas are wrong, millions will go to hell who thought they were okay.

[icebear]

:doh:doh:doh:doh

160 plus pages and it is obvious from the two posts above that some still think that a believer can be snatched from Jesus' hand.
Do y'all think for one second that Jesus will that happen? :ohno
Do y'all think Jesus is so fickle as to go back on His Word? We may be weak but He is strong. He cannot lie.

John 6:38-40
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.




Once truly saved, always saved. Period.
i don't know what to tell ya... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/icebear713/smilies/scratchhead.gif

[sweet rose]

Chuck
As Steve53 said -- that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing --
If that does not suffice please check out - John 10 : 29
If you still think that there is not a certainty about your eternal salvation, you can not be reading the Gospels with discernment. John 10 : 29 is spoken by Jesus. Can He speak a falsehood? Pray and ask God to grant you discernment as you read and study the scripture.
Jack Kelly's Grace Thru Faith is a good place to search for answers about OSAS.Try it.

[Steve53]

How do osas explain 2nd Peter 20-23? Also, at what point do I lose my ability to choose life or death? It is a complete cop-out to say that people were never saved. I do believe it is difficult to lose your salvation, but I do believe it is possible. I don't find anywhere in scripture where God takes away our ability to choose or where we willing give up this choice. I believe that osas doctrine is very dangerous. I know this,if I am wrong it does not matter, if the osas are wrong, millions will go to hell who thought they were okay.


Did you mean 2Peter2:20-23? :scratch

If so, read the entire chapter for the proper context. (False prophets) Also read back through this thread. This point along with all the other very common and all too frequent rebuttals have been covered more than once.

[sweet rose]

Chuck - I just checked my mail and found an item from Jack Kelly on Bible Prophecy Today re How to interpret the Bible. There I found the "Golden Rule of Interpretation"The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” - Dr. D.L. Cooper

[dmarkham10]

Steve53 Why can't you answer my question. Tell me in the scriptures where God takes or I lose, my ability to choose life or death. The truth is you can't. People keep saying that Jesus can't lose me. Or, no one can take me out of his hand. I agree with both of these statements. But, that does not say that I can't choose to walk away and deny Christ. If osas is truth, then there is no need for any of the new testament beyond the book of Romans. Do you believe that Christians can't sin? Do you believe that Christians don't commit adultery? Do you believe that Christians don't steal. Yet the Word of god says that no adulterers will enter heaven. Do you believe that all future sins we commit as Christians are already forgiven so that there is no need for further repentance and forgiveness? If after I become saved, can I still choose to sin? If I have the ability to choose to sin, do I not also have the ability to walk away from my salvation? You see, God is so secure in Himself and his love for us, that he did not create robots with no ability to choose. Again, show me in scripture where I lose that ability.

[Thomas3599]

Chuck
As Steve53 said -- that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing --
If that does not suffice please check out - John 10 : 29
If you still think that there is not a certainty about your eternal salvation, you can not be reading the Gospels with discernment. John 10 : 29 is spoken by Jesus. Can He speak a falsehood? Pray and ask God to grant you discernment as you read and study the scripture.
Jack Kelly's Grace Thru Faith is a good place to search for answers about OSAS.Try it.

[Look at the word snatched or plucked. In the Greek (harpazo) means can't be forced out or taken quickly. Satan knows this. But a person can be drawn out slowly and not even know it.
Jesus did not say you can't be taken out of the Father's hand. He used snatched, plucked. When you are walking in faith you are in no danger. Its when a christian gets caught up in the things of this world.]

[Elzeem]

Luke 12:1 "In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy."

Jude 1:5-6 "I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

2Peter 2:4-6 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"



Rev 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."



Why would God even put this in His Word?

[OnceWasLost]

Steve53 Why can't you answer my question. Tell me in the scriptures where God takes or I lose, my ability to choose life or death. The truth is you can't. People keep saying that Jesus can't lose me. Or, no one can take me out of his hand. I agree with both of these statements. But, that does not say that I can't choose to walk away and deny Christ. If osas is truth, then there is no need for any of the new testament beyond the book of Romans. Do you believe that Christians can't sin? Do you believe that Christians don't commit adultery? Do you believe that Christians don't steal. Yet the Word of god says that no adulterers will enter heaven. Do you believe that all future sins we commit as Christians are already forgiven so that there is no need for further repentance and forgiveness? If after I become saved, can I still choose to sin? If I have the ability to choose to sin, do I not also have the ability to walk away from my salvation? You see, God is so secure in Himself and his love for us, that he did not create robots with no ability to choose. Again, show me in scripture where I lose that ability.

This sounds a bit close to Arminius' view that we can sin our way out of the Kingdom, which IMO is entirely foolish. 1 John 1 deals with the fact we will sin, and it spells out that God has taken that into account and made provision through the blood of Jesus. The Free will argument is a better take on the OSAS view, if it is opposed or a counter argument is to be offered.

There is no way that I or anyone will be tricked into "losing" our salvation, which I think is a silly phrasing anyway, but that's another subject. Where the warnings have some merit, at least for sake of discussion, is that it could be renounced, thus it's a conscious decision. Most of the time we speak in the hypothetical with regards to this subject, so a real life scenario seems best if we want to present an argument.

Here is one for instance. I know a person, who I heard teach numerous times and gave a straight forward Gospel presentation. It was textbook Salvation through the atoning blood of Jesus, and repentance from sin etc. People responded and are saved and walking with Jesus, to this day, as a result.

Now this same person is currently espousing the beliefs of the likes of NT Wright and other universalists who do not believe in a literal hell, thus no real punishment for sin, thus no rapture, no need for repentance no need ,for atonement. There is a complete departure from his former doctrinal and theological position. That IMO is not a sin issue, nor an issue of a backslidden believer, it seems much more dire. From all appearances he has changed his mind about fundamental issues and his message can no longer save the hearer of that message. A dilemma if ever there was one.

I am not comfortable with the explanation that he was never saved, because if he wasn't I cannot, nor could anyone else prove that we will eventually be saved, that would need to wait until we are raptured or die in faith. That said, I do not fear about sinning my way out of Heaven since the same book of Hebrews, that to some has warnings against apostasy and unbelief, is the book that tells me I am perfect while being sanctified (Hebrews 10:14)

A more compelling argument than, we better be sure we don't sin our way out of heaven, is to ask if free will is a door that swings in both directions. Again, I am eternally secure in the work of Jesus on the Cross and the Holy Spirit is the seal and evidence of that reality. Sin breaks my fellowship with Him, it does not disqualify me from my position.

This is sure to open a huge can of worms, but I really dislike Arminius and Calvin extremes. Not saying you are a pure Arminius poster, but I figured I would throw this out for the lurkers.

[sweet rose]

If a person is truly 'born again' he will be convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit that indwells him and he will ask the Father to forgive him of his sin - in Jesus name. Just because we are born again does not mean we have become sinless. We are human and we sin what does Paul say ? the things that he wants to do he does not but the things that he does not want to do are the things that he does. That is sin. That is why daily we must come to the Father and ask for forgiveness. That is the way we are OSAS through the blood of our Saviour, Jesus. It is the Holy Spirit that is our conscience convicting us of our sin.