Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Robert]

It's amazing how distracted we can become in our TIME. I Do NOT say that Legalistically, but JUST out of flat reality

I'm amazed at how we can so easily accept or twist or pervert scripture to fit ideology we want to FIT into our doctrine

it's amazing we can say an APOSTATE is someone who NEVER knew the Truth, when by defintion APOSTATE is someone who turned from TRUTH into error

no wonder we are in era of apostasy

Why would our Lord have entire chapter's dedicated to WARN of something so many EVEN on RR say is NOT possible....APOSTASY???

It grieves my spirit MIGHTILY that we would try to reassure so many that God would warn to be WARNED????

My heart is hurting and grieving and breaking because I personally know many who have DIVORCED their faith...I have scene it first hand and know it's so real ..head knowledge does NOT equal REALITY

WE can NOT assure or even reassure what Scripture does NOT

Sounding, I am familiar with the chapter you are talking about, but do you believe that those that are truly in the Lord can just up and turn their backs like that?

Keep in mind what Christ said:

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:29-30, NIV)

Keep in mind: no one means exactly that: NO ONE. Not even the person who is in God's hand.

Yes, an apostate is one who knows the truth and deviates from it. One who never knew the truth is one that has never been given it. But the point is: an apostate is someone who NEVER truly gave their heart to the Lord. Those who are truly saved CANNOT lose their salvation because they would not turn from the Lord like that. An apostate is one who does a complete about face and walks away, which none of us who truly reside in the Lord would do.

I am not saying apostasy is not possible, I am saying it's not possible for those that are truly the Lord's. Otherwise, we would make a liar of Christ.

I have wrestled with this problem for some time as well, but if this were truly the case, then thousands by that definition, who ever had a moment of doubt, would be lost, including me and you. And Thomas the apostle, and many christians during the ages, because moments of weakness could be considered apostasy, or turning away.

God's word never contradicts itself, so how would you reconcile John 10;29-30 with the other verses?


And I am not debating your other post that says we must live repentance as a lifestyle. But at the same time, salvation is not an effort of ourselves, but OF GOD. If it were of us, then why did Christ come down to die for us? We cannot be good enough to deserve salvation, and we are certainly going to sin. Which is why 1 john tells us:

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also fora the sins of the whole world. " ( 1 John 2:1-2 NIV)

[SoundingtheAlarm]

Robert I hear ya and part of me wants to really agree, I am just needing prayer against discouragement...I have a couple of people I know really well and they at one time were seemingly soooo rock solid, hanging bible verses on their fridge to memorize....going to every prayer meeting ever called....witnessing like there was no tomorrow

and now ...they speak with such hatred and disdain toward the things of God and Yesterday I saw one of those people hit a low I thought not possible and it hurts when you have invested so many prayers and tried so hard to reach out.....

I feel soooooo ineffective and useless and desperate to see God move and I just ask that you'd all pray for these two people and forgive me for my rant on this thread....

both of these people have such influence over other people I hold dear...it's like a huge huge web

[Christina]

Sounding, I am familiar with the chapter you are talking about, but do you believe that those that are truly in the Lord can just up and turn their backs like that?

Keep in mind what Christ said:

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:29-30, NIV)

Keep in mind: no one means exactly that: NO ONE. Not even the person who is in God's hand.

Yes, an apostate is one who knows the truth and deviates from it. One who never knew the truth is one that has never been given it. But the point is: an apostate is someone who NEVER truly gave their heart to the Lord. Those who are truly saved CANNOT lose their salvation because they would not turn from the Lord like that. An apostate is one who does a complete about face and walks away, which none of us who truly reside in the Lord would do.

I am not saying apostasy is not possible, I am saying it's not possible for those that are truly the Lord's. Otherwise, we would make a liar of Christ.

I have wrestled with this problem for some time as well, but if this were truly the case, then thousands by that definition, who ever had a moment of doubt, would be lost, including me and you. And Thomas the apostle, and many christians during the ages, because moments of weakness could be considered apostasy, or turning away.

God's word never contradicts itself, so how would you reconcile John 10;29-30 with the other verses?


And I am not debating your other post that says we must live repentance as a lifestyle. But at the same time, salvation is not an effort of ourselves, but OF GOD. If it were of us, then why did Christ come down to die for us? We cannot be good enough to deserve salvation, and we are certainly going to sin. Which is why 1 john tells us:

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also fora the sins of the whole world. " ( 1 John 2:1-2 NIV)

STA, you and your family are in my prayers daily brother :hug

You have also hit on something very true. God took the entire Book of Jude to talk to the believer about apostasy so it is obvious that it is a real concept and not just a twisting of scripture.

I have to respectfully disagree with the bolded parts Robert. I believe that in these verses God is talking about those that continue to seek after Him, those that although may be backslidden, will still claim that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. An apostate is someone who yes, knew the truth but turned away from it. I'm not talking about someone who just has a moment of weekness or someone that rebels against the Lord, I'm talking about someone who knew the truth but for whatever the reason, will now turn and say that Jesus is NOT the only way to Heaven. This has happened greatly since the New Age and Mystics became more vocal. Some who would have claimed 20 years ago that Christ is the only way will now say that there is more than one path to Christ, this is an apostate, someone who denies that Christ is the ONLY way.

When Jesus spoke of His sheep knowing His voice and that those whom the Father has given that no man can take, I believe He was speaking about those who actively seek Him, I believe He is claiming that nobody can take us from the Father, however, willfully walking away and denying Christ as the only way is not someone taking you away, it is you yourself turning away.

We know that the Lord has given us free will, why would free will be ours to CHOOSE Him but not be ours to walk away from Him? Does free will only work on a "one way" basis? How do you reconcile Hebrews 6:4-6 ~ "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” Someone who has tasted the Word of God, someone who has been a partaker of the Holy Ghost is not someone who has known but not believed, this is not someone on the outside looking in, someone who has tasted the Word of God and who has been a partaker of the Holy Ghost is someone who was once saved.

Losing one's salvation and walking away from the Lord and denying He is the only way, are 2 different things. I believe in the verses you quoted that Jesus was speaking about the first...that no-one can sin their way out of salvation and nobody can take our salvation from us, we know His voice and we follow. However, someone making a conscious and knowing choice to walk away and deny Christ as the only way (after once believing) is what is called an apostate. To say that apostasy is someone who knew the truth but refused to follow is just someone who is not saved but God makes it very clear in Hebrews and in Jude that an apostate is someone who once claimed faith in Christ but has now chosen to deny Him as the only way to Heaven.

Chuck Missler does an awesome study on the book of Jude on You Tube, going verse by verse. Through this study he takes you all over the Bible. It literally takes him about an hour just to get through 2 verses, the study is very detailed. I too used to think the same way but after actually studying apostasy on a deeper scale, I came to see that apostasy isn't just knowing and refusing to believe, it's believing but at some later point denying. I used to wonder how any born again believer who truly knew Christ could up and deny Him as the only way but then I realized after the study that although I couldn't understand it because I couldn't logically rationalize it, the Bible says it will happen.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents...lol

[Waiting4Jesus]

Robert I hear ya and part of me wants to really agree, I am just needing prayer against discouragement...I have a couple of people I know really well and they at one time were seemingly soooo rock solid, hanging bible verses on their fridge to memorize....going to every prayer meeting ever called....witnessing like there was no tomorrow

and now ...they speak with such hatred and disdain toward the things of God and Yesterday I saw one of those people hit a low I thought not possible and it hurts when you have invested so many

Oh, Sounding, that is just heartbreaking! Praying for you/them...:pray:pray:hug:hug

[NotAlone]

Praying for you, and for them, Sounding.

[SoundingtheAlarm]

that is exactly what I am talking about Christina!!

I'm not talking about someone falling into sin or backsliding but having gone way past those points and have now taken the stance of Denying Christ and renouncing The Faith they once proclaimed and lived

And to see the devestation in the lives around them and what those decisions have created BREAKS MY HEART and YES I believe in Eternal Security but I do NOT believe in Unconditional Eternal Security

I believe scripture shows that there are those who can through hardness of heart, TURN away from and Divorce the relationship they once revered.....

To say it can't happen...I'm watching it happen and have seen it happen. Someone who ministered, who would spend hours shopping for devotionals and I could go on an on about a spiritual resume they once had ...but NOW they have nothing to do with it and in fact go to combat with it and mock and deride it and

Thanks NotAlone.....let me clarify, it's not my son, but someone who is very close to my son...who it's crushing him to witness the effect it's having on this person

[NotAlone]

Wow, I guess I'm not quite awake yet this morning and I apologize! I'll edit my post.

[carolina_guy]

Judas Iscariot never knew Jesus, or rather, Jesus never knew Judas. As the author and perfecter of our faith, Jesus ALWAYS finishes what He started. Salvation is a sovereign act of God - Jesus will lose NONE the Father gives Him:


John 6 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

We do not hold on to Christ, He holds on to us. Further, Romans 8:38-39 and John 10:27-29 are bedrock Scriptures for eternal security. Because Scripture cannot contradict itself, everything else must agree:


John 10 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.


Romans 8 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you are breathing, you are a created thing, so not even yourself can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

If they go out from us, they were never of us, for if they were of us they would have remained.


1 John 2 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

If you are a child of God, you will persevere by the keeping of the One who saved you by His grace for His glory.

The parable of the sower reveals that there are those who received the Word, but they fell away after a while. They might have looked like a Christian and talked like a Christian, but in the end, they were nothing but a tare, a weed, a dead branch.


Matthew 13 18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

If you are a child of God, you will abide, not because of your power and strength, but because of the power of the Holy Spirit who has sealed you until the day of Redemption.


John 15 1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

1 John 2 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. [B]If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him.

28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when[f] He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

[SoundingtheAlarm]

no...NotAlone, my post didn't make it clear enough....

[carolina_guy]

This is a great interview between Phil Johnson and John MacArthur: When Believers Stop Believing: Portrait of an Apostate (http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/GTY119.mp3)

STA, I think you will be able to relate to JM as he dealt with apostasy with 2 of his closest friends who turned out to be "not of us".