Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[SoundingtheAlarm]

"I will NEVER Leave thee Nor Forsake Thee"

David asked/stated in Psalms 139 ...that there was nowhere he could go to hide from God's Presence

I think the heart of what David was crying in Psalsm 51 was "don't let me lose THAT revelation...lose sight of that knowledge of how very close You Are"

David Cried to God asking Him to Restore the JOY of His Salvation

What David lost for that time was the awareness of God's Presence..knowing that in God's Presence is FULLNESS OF JOY

It's no different that Adam and Eve..when they fell into sin...they tried to Hide themselves from an Ever Present God/All Knowing God...and God had to ask them "Where are you?"

God NEVER leaves us or abandon's us....He's always there knocking on the door of our lives ..drawing us to HIM...that is Amazing Grace...that revelation also caused David to ask...."what is man that You Oh God would be mindful of us?"

and again thank God for that Promise "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU"

[Kliska]

When David says: 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Psalm 51:11, does this mean that it can happen?

As others have said, the Holy Spirit interacts with us differently under the new covenant; we are now born again and indwelt by the Spirit. I would also point out that our understanding of the Holy Spirit as a Person of the Trinity has progressed with the new testament. He is a "Person," capable of initiating action; He can't just be snatched from us, like a substance or a non-sentient power, He is a part of the Trinity; God Himself dwelling literally within us.


Is it possible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit while being a believer? I have read that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is rejecting Jesus (the unforgiveable sin) and that a believer cannot commit it, and if youre worried about it youre probably ok, but doesn't blasphemy mean that you speak bad of or take in vain? I have never really understood this. Thanks!

I still fully believe it is possible to commit the unforgivable sin, it wasn't just in existence at one point in the past. Yes, one blasphemes the Spirit by rejecting Christ, and it is unforgivable because if one dies without accepting Christ, that person is not and cannot be saved. The Spirit still gives testimony to people in today's world through various means; those that reject Him are blaspheming against Him because they are denying His witness to Christ; they are speaking against the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe a true believer can commit the unforgivable sin...as it is not possible to be a believer and to reject Christ at the same time.

[kjlistrom]

When David says: 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Psalm 51:11, does this mean that it can happen?
As the others have said, once sealed the Holy Spirit will keep you till the day of redemption.

Is it possible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit while being a believer?I believe that every Christian has sinned against God since becoming a Christian, everyone.


I have read that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is rejecting Jesus (the unforgiveable sin) and that a believer cannot commit it,As Hootmon said, I also believe that it was to those that were there at the time that Jesus was with them and they were about to attribute His miracles to Satan.
I've known many that have said no to the Holy Spirit many, many times, over years and years, only to say Yes to Him and become saved. They rejected what Christ did on the Cross many times.


and if youre worried about it youre probably ok, but doesn't blasphemy mean that you speak bad of or take in vain? I have never really understood this. Thanks!When a Christian sins, he separates himself from God and turns away from Him. God does not turn away from the sinning Christian. The Holy Spirit continues to convict till the sinning Christian is broken and turns back to God in forgiveness. Thus refilled by the Holy Spirit.

[princesstiki]

What is grieving the Holy Spirit? Is this when I sin? If its sin, then how can I not grieve the spirit if I'm always going to sin and never be perfect? If I grieve the Spirit by sin, will I go to hell? If I sin and I were to die before I could ask for forgiveness could I go to hell? If I sin and then the rapture happens before I ask forgiveness would I be left behind?

[Anddra]

First, please understand that once someone has been saved, then Jesus himself will make sure that you remain saved. We cannot lose our eternal salvation. However, we can lose our present enjoyment of it. This article might be of some help to you here - http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?133082-Christian-Fundamentals-%E2%80%93-Salvation

Now, the scripture you are referring to in its context ...


Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Ephesians 4:25-32 (KJV)

We can grieve the Holy Spirit in many ways. These from Spurgeon ...


“I think I now see the Spirit of God grieving, when you are sitting down to read a novel and there is your Bible unread. Perhaps you take down some book of travels, and you forget that you have got a more precious book of travels in the Acts of the Apostles, and in the story of your blessed Lord and Master. You have no time for prayer, but the Spirit sees you very active about worldly things, and having many hours to spare for relaxation and amusement. And then he is grieved because he sees that you love worldly things better than you love him.”

“Although the word ‘grieve’ is a painful one, yet there is honey in the rock; for it is an inexpressibly delightful thought, that he who rules heaven and earth, and is the creator of all things, and the infinite and ever blessed God, condescends to enter into such infinite relationships with his people that his divine mind may be affected by their actions. What a marvel that Deity should be said to grieve over the faults of beings so utterly insignificant as we are!”

“Sin everywhere must be displeasing to the Spirit of holiness, but sin in his own people is grievous to him in the highest degree. He will not hate his people, but he does hate their sins, and hates them all the more because they nestle in his children’s bosoms. The Spirit would not be the Spirit of truth if he could approve of that which is false in us: he would not be pure if that which is impure in us did not grieve him.”

“The Holy Spirit’s grief is not of a petty, oversensitive nature. “He is grieved with us mainly for our own sakes, for he knows what misery sin will cost us; he reads our sorrows in our sins . . . He grieves over us because he sees how much chastisement we incur, and how much communion we lose.”

[Hootmon]

What is grieving the Holy Spirit? Is this when I sin?There is a list in the following the verse describing the sort of thing that brings 'pain' to the Holy Spirit.


Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
(Eph 4:31)

If I had to summarize that in modern language; dont hold grudges. That sort of persistant 'simmering' is poisonous to you and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

[TinaMarie]

Yesterday afternoon I was talking to a friend at work and we were discussing once saved always saved. He says that if you got saved when you were a child, but now you have turned away from God then you probably weren't ever saved. That you constantly need to repent and feel remorse in order to know you are saved.

I don't believe that. This is what I told him:
"Let's say that when you were 10 years old, you got saved and when you were 10 you truly believed. I believe on that day you became a child of God. Now, 20 years later you have turned your back on him, you don't live a "Christian" Lifestyle and you aren't remorseful or guilty because you no longer believe. Now imagine this. On a hot day, several years ago I gave birth to K. K is my child. Nothing on this planet, not the law, not his disobedience, nothing changes that. If K stands on a mountain top and screams, I hate you Tina, you are not my mother, I am Never doing anything you say or anything you want me to do, does that change the fact that he is still my child? No. He is my child. Always. Forever. No matter how much he doesn't want to be. (Not that he does, as he is a small child who loves his Mommy - but for illistration purposes I used this) I think that it is the same for us, when we become children of the Father.
John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

What do you think? Was I right or wrong. People's thoughts on Once Saved Always Saved always facinate me.

Thanks

[Resting]

I recently had a discussion with a friend of mine (a Christian). We were discussing the seemingly age old question of Once Saved, Always Saved.

Personally, I believe once a person truly believes in Christ as Savior (which implies repentance), he/she is saved FOREVER ("nothing can snatch them from the Father's hand").

But my friend is on the fence regarding this question. Of the above question, he says "nothing can snatch us from His hand, but we can leave on our own accord, can't we? We do have free will We freely chose Him, and we can just as freely UnChoose Him."

He also quotes from Hebrews 6:4-6 "4 For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit,

5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come--

6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.

The website I was looking at said this passage was more of a hypothetical...but it doesn't seem that way to me.

There was another passage somewhere else in the Bible my friend used to support this position (against Once Saved, Always Saved), but I can't remember it... Ugh...

Anyways, after our discussion, I conceded that his examples gave me pause in my own position. Perhaps someone can "explain away" these verses that seem to go against Once Saved, Always Saved.

I appreciate your help!

[Christina]

There are over 150 pages to read....give it a try and see what you comeout thinking ater...

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1159-Once-a-Sheep-Always-a-Sheep-or-Salvation-Deficit-Disorder&highlight=OSAS

[Br Philip]

I dont believe in OSAS, we would not need any warnings, not would we be deceived, i believe salvation is a gift and like all gifts IT can be given back .

i believe one NEEDS to stay in the relationship to stay STRONG once strength goes weakness comes, when weakness comes deception is not far away , when deception comes IF that person remains in that state he is not in touch with the TRUTH

Jesus spoke of continuing in His word.
John 8:31 “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”
CONTINUE – “meno” – a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):–abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry.

this is my opinion, as I intend to stay with the LORD, FOR I fear HIM

I dont SEE how anyone who does not fear/respect, and KEEP the WORD close could even begin to CONTINUE in Strength

either YOUR going to FEED yourselves or satan will, Which food will you choose


2Pe 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
KNOWLEDGE – “epignosis” – recognition, i.e. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgment.



2Pe 2:21
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to TURN from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
TURN – “epistrepho” – to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): come (go) again, convert, (re-)turn (about, again).

2 Peter 2:22 “But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was WASHED to her wallowing in the mire.”
WASHED – “louo” – a primary verb 3068; to bathe (the whole person; whereas 3538 means to wet a part only, and 4150 to wash, cleanse garments exclusively): wash


Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
KNOWLEDGE – “epignosis” – recognition, i.e. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgment.

2 Timothy 4:7 “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have KEPT the faith:”
KEPT – “tereo” – from teros (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon;

these are scriptures to brothers not non-believers


these people have ACCEPTED the TRUTH, Tasted the Fruits of the SPIRITs , PARTAKEN in the Gifts and SEEN the Light

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


“partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

I believe people can fall away, and come back, but if oNE has fallen away to WILLFUL sin , they gave the Gift back

now people can say THEY never were saved----------- but THESE people have had the GHOST

why all the WARNINGs IF we were not able to FAIL

we must Continue, KEEP, ABIDE in the Vine

NOW , there is Others Things God does to WEAK believers, He will KILL them to save their souls

1 Corinthians 5
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even ◙ named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord

I believe there is a point when deception will cause a person to give the Gift back

My suggestions are to Continue, Abide, Keep, HOLD the WORD and a Continual washing as to stay strong