Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[dleader]

Fantastic post!:yeah

[TaliaKirana]

Great post. I have to cling to His promises when the doubts come around. Jesus will not lose a single one of us who are His.

[RefinedbyFire]

I understand the uncomfortable feelings you have wrestled. I'm sure many prodigals do. Those apostasy verses are alarming in the Bible. I wonder if God allows those uncomfortable feelings, through reading His Word, upon returning to Him, as a way of showing us the absolute dangers & risks involved in sin, after being accountable to the truth. Those verses (and the feelings that can go along with them) can remind us to not go astray again, and to fear/reverance the Lord.

Hebrews 6 and 10: Some commentaries say those verses are about Christians, formerly in Judaism, returning back to Judaism & animal sacrifices, and rejecting Jesus Christ, the final sacrifice. Some commentaries say those verses are speaking of a final, deliberate rejection of Christ (final apostasy), with a full knowledge of the truth, rather than a sheep going wayward, without full knowledge. Some say those verses show a person that was never regenerated, but was originally part of the Christian assembly, and walked away for good. Not sure. Also, I think about the fact that only God can define who is truly "fallen away." Somebody may be a "lost son" or "lost sheep", that has not truly "fallen away." One has to balance the Parables of the sinful "Prodigal Son" & "Lost Sheep" with these Hebrew verses on apostasy. Correct? Regardless, for sure, those verses do warn of sinning willfully, and the dangers of sin, and going astray, and final apostasy.

Along the lines of apostasy, Jesus gave "Jezebel" in the church (a false prophet) space to repent (Revelation 2).

Remember, God promises to forgive you, and cleanse you from all unrighteousness, when you confess your sin (1 John 1:9). He promises to not to cast you out, if you go to Him (John 6:37). His Word shows He is forgiving, compassionate, and full of grace to the repentant sinner. You have to stand on His promises in His Word, which are true. They are always kept, and are always true, because the Lord is good.

Here's a great historic sermon, by John Wesley, called "A Call to Backsliders" that might be good for you to read, along with the Word: http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-sermons-of-john-wesley-1872-edition/sermon-86-a-call-to-backsliders/

[RefinedbyFire]

I have heard many coming here to RR in desperation about their salvation and whether or not they could lose it. This kind of thinking of losing your salvation is false and comes from both Calvinist and Arminianist doctrines. Christians you cannot lose what has been given to you by the blood of Jesus Christ. You were once slaves to sin- He has bought you for a price and you are now His if you believe in Christ Jesus and have repented of your sins.

Calvinist= saved by grace and not on your own but by election; you must keep it up with the works or you were not saved to begin with.

Arminianist= you completely choose on your own whether you are saved; you must keep it up with the works or you will lose it.

Now, if one looks in Corinthians you might be surprised that Paul went to speak with the most wayward Christians you could ever find. In fact, the Corinthians were doing things worse than the pagans. Here is the first thing Paul ever said to the Corinthians....

1 Corinthians 1

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanksgiving
4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Now this should put things in perspective....:yeah


Cling to the Lord and He will sanctify us through the Holy Spirit and WILL keep us firm til the end.

Great encouraging post!

OK, I don't want to get into divisive arguements at all, but I go back-and-forth on this subject, especially lately.... By looking at all the Bible verses on this subject, I understand why there is a debate. I lean on "OSAS" (and I realize this is a "OSAS" site), but I'm not dogmatic about either side. A couple of things: I've wondered about the verses like Matthew 6:15 and Matthew 5:24, in regards to salvation. I've heard a testimony recently that really "poked a hole" in the "OSAS" side of the debate, in regards to that forgiveness condition. After almost ending up in hell after an accident, the believer claims he was allowed to return to his body, to continue living and have a chance to forgive the offense, so he was ultimately preserved. So, that kinda testimony (if true), ironically, doesn't really strengthen either side of the debate. It threw me back a bit, but I do know what Jesus said about forgiveness. I do believe that the power of God does keep our salvation to the end. I have to say, some verses make sense to me, keeping in mind the forgiveness factor, and how it relates to salvation (including the verse on topic "...and he who stands firm to the end will be saved."). Also, it seems I've read a few places the Greek shows eternal life is "present condition" or "present possession." Is that correct? If that is true, then it is no longer difficult for me to understand why the "Prodigal Son" was formerly "dead" and made "alive again" through confession of sin, recognizing his need for God's forgiveness and forgiving others their debts, and thus, receiving God's forgiveness. Also, doesn't the Bible show Christ is our Mediator? Is He constantly mediating between us and the Father? If that is so, is it really true when they say "all your sins from past, present, and future" are already forgiven in Christ? Or, are they forgiven as you abide and walk in confession and repentance daily? I have questions about that, too.

I don't know; I'm not a Bible teacher. I've just had these questions lately on this debate. But, for sure, the Bible shows the Lord's sheep are His, and He chooses us! I know salvation can't be earned, but is given by grace through faith alone, in the precious blood of Christ, and His righteousness alone covers us.

[HeIsEnough]

OK, I don't want to get into divisive arguements at all, but I go back-and-forth on this subject, especially lately.... By looking at all the Bible verses on this subject, I understand why there is a debate.

Some random thoughts on this. I've thought of two primary views, what is true for you, and what is true for others. Sometimes I wonder when a preacher speaks to this, is he speaking to himself, or is it primarily to others? Because of the nature of salvation in Jesus Christ, it gets confusing when people speak of others because the scriptures primarily speak to us individually. I choose to be dogmatic about it, because it is what God says. No matter my experience with it, Gods word is true. I'm consequently not so interested in personal experience with God in this regard. I've noticed that often the person speaking feel they lost their salvation, yet they are still alive, yet they now are saved, verses a point in time on their life. Do they think the Lord was not around when they thought they were unsaved? The truth is the end of a life, not when the cake is cooking. A better testimony leads to the truth of an experience, the Lord is faithful, when I am faithless. This can lead to pointing to the sure word of God, that we should trust in Him, we are not trustworthy to maintain it, and we prove it. As an aside, all the other things which go along with salvation are presented to us as a "must." Forgiveness will be no different. All these things come as a consequence of salvation, including forgiveness.


I do believe that the power of God does keep our salvation to the end.

And what a great power it is! This is worthy of dogma. If this is true for you, which I believe any man can view it as such because God says we can, then it can be true for any man. Even the testimony you heard affirms this truth.

Less of

"I did this and was bound for hell, then I did this and it is all ok"

More of,

"God is faithful, He was faithful to me as He did not let me slip from His hand, He will do the same for you, trust Him and never take your eyes off of Him, He is true to His word."


I don't know; I'm not a Bible teacher. I've just had these questions lately on this debate. But, for sure, the Bible shows the Lord's sheep are His, and He chooses us! I know salvation can't be earned, but is given by grace through faith alone, in the precious blood of Christ, and His righteousness alone covers us.

There are different ways to look at it, one is to separate it a little as personal, for you, and what is true for others. Every believer who understands, will appeal to Christ as his salvation, they have no defense besides. Yet many can make it seem like more when speaking to others, all in the name of "making sure" you are sure your saved. A worthy goal, rarely ever done right, imo. Often, people end up feeling unsaved. Well, you will feel unsaved when you look to yourself, its a no brainer. But when we get others to look to Christ, what our salvation is based upon, it is a different story. It will be based upon the sure word of God, more sure than the universe itself. Staying firm till the end is to forever look to Christ for your salvation. KWIM?

[RefinedbyFire]

Some random thoughts on this. I've thought of two primary views, what is true for you, and what is true for others. Sometimes I wonder when a preacher speaks to this, is he speaking to himself, or is it primarily to others? Because of the nature of salvation in Jesus Christ, it gets confusing when people speak of others because the scriptures primarily speak to us individually. I choose to be dogmatic about it, because it is what God says. No matter my experience with it, Gods word is true. I'm consequently not so interested in personal experience with God in this regard. I've noticed that often the person speaking feel they lost their salvation, yet they are still alive, yet they now are saved, verses a point in time on their life. Do they think the Lord was not around when they thought they were unsaved? The truth is the end of a life, not when the cake is cooking. A better testimony leads to the truth of an experience, the Lord is faithful, when I am faithless. This can lead to pointing to the sure word of God, that we should trust in Him, we are not trustworthy to maintain it, and we prove it. As an aside, all the other things which go along with salvation are presented to us as a "must." Forgiveness will be no different. All these things come as a consequence of salvation, including forgiveness.



And what a great power it is! This is worthy of dogma. If this is true for you, which I believe any man can view it as such because God says we can, then it can be true for any man. Even the testimony you heard affirms this truth.

Less of

"I did this and was bound for hell, then I did this and it is all ok"

More of,

"God is faithful, He was faithful to me as He did not let me slip from His hand, He will do the same for you, trust Him and never take your eyes off of Him, He is true to His word."



There are different ways to look at it, one is to separate it a little as personal, for you, and what is true for others. Every believer who understands, will appeal to Christ as his salvation, they have no defense besides. Yet many can make it seem like more when speaking to others, all in the name of "making sure" you are sure your saved. A worthy goal, rarely ever done right, imo. Often, people end up feeling unsaved. Well, you will feel unsaved when you look to yourself, its a no brainer. But when we get others to look to Christ, what our salvation is based upon, it is a different story. It will be based upon the sure word of God, more sure than the universe itself. Staying firm till the end is to forever look to Christ for your salvation. KWIM?

Thanks for your thoughts. Don't get me wrong, I believe in "OSAS" in the sense I know that God is the "Author & Finisher of our Faith", and has the power to preserve our salvation through life. (Basically, Jesus is the believer's "navigator" through the "seas" of life. Yet, if we don't abide in Him, we can end up "shipwrecked in the faith" according to the Bible. But, He is still there to forgive, I believe.) That testimony I recently heard really threw me back a bit, and if the believer's experience with hell is true, or isn't true, the bottom line is that Jesus shows the "forgiveness factor" in the Gospel. I think in a "OSAS" view, we don't really think a true believer will end up in hell, just because that person died with a momentary grudge in their heart towards somebody else. Ya know? Yet, anybody that is "mature in Christ" knows the importance of immediate, ongoing forgiveness, and what Jesus clearly said on the matter. Futhermore, the Bible also shows not to let the sun go down on your anger, so the enemy doesn't get a foothold. With the "forgiveness factor" a reality, along with verses that show "holy living" is part of walking with the Lord, verses that talk about branches being cut-off and thrown in the fire, being cut-off if you don't continue in His goodness, verses that seem to talk about not being saved because your love (and willingness to forgive) has waxed-cold before the end, all make more sense to me with the "forgiveness factor" in mind. It makes perfect sense, because for the Lord to forgive all our life's sin & wickedness, with His shed blood through His painful death on that cross, no wonder we are required to also forgive abundantly. So, I didn't share that to usurp the "OSAS" belief, I shared it to remind others what Jesus said about forgiveness (as some here might be carrying grudges inside...who knows). In following the Lord, I know He has the power to keep my salvation to the end, so I don't need to walk in fear, thinking I'm constantly toggling between salvation and condemnation. However, I do believe God's forgiveness towards my daily sins is restricted with me holding any unforgiveness in my heart, therefore I'm putting myself in a "risk zone" if I'm doing so. Even with the "Prodigal Son", the Lord knew the end from the beginning, and ultimately the "Prodigal Son" was saved, even though he had a period of not walking with the Lord. (To me, it seems exactly the same in the O.T. with God willing to abundantly forgive Israel's backslidings, ect.) However, again, Jesus spoke serious about forgiving others in relationship to God forgiving me. So, again I'm dogmatic about either stance on both's sides of the arguement, although I lean towards "OSAS" because I understand God has the power to do so. Again, I'm not a Bible teacher or theologian, so I'm not teaching anything, I'm discussing... Thanks again for your input.

[truthwarrior]

Some random thoughts on this. I've thought of two primary views, what is true for you, and what is true for others. Sometimes I wonder when a preacher speaks to this, is he speaking to himself, or is it primarily to others? Because of the nature of salvation in Jesus Christ, it gets confusing when people speak of others because the scriptures primarily speak to us individually. I choose to be dogmatic about it, because it is what God says. No matter my experience with it, Gods word is true. I'm consequently not so interested in personal experience with God in this regard. I've noticed that often the person speaking feel they lost their salvation, yet they are still alive, yet they now are saved, verses a point in time on their life. Do they think the Lord was not around when they thought they were unsaved? The truth is the end of a life, not when the cake is cooking. A better testimony leads to the truth of an experience, the Lord is faithful, when I am faithless. This can lead to pointing to the sure word of God, that we should trust in Him, we are not trustworthy to maintain it, and we prove it. As an aside, all the other things which go along with salvation are presented to us as a "must." Forgiveness will be no different. All these things come as a consequence of salvation, including forgiveness.



And what a great power it is! This is worthy of dogma. If this is true for you, which I believe any man can view it as such because God says we can, then it can be true for any man. Even the testimony you heard affirms this truth.

Less of

"I did this and was bound for hell, then I did this and it is all ok"

More of,

"God is faithful, He was faithful to me as He did not let me slip from His hand, He will do the same for you, trust Him and never take your eyes off of Him, He is true to His word."



There are different ways to look at it, one is to separate it a little as personal, for you, and what is true for others. Every believer who understands, will appeal to Christ as his salvation, they have no defense besides. Yet many can make it seem like more when speaking to others, all in the name of "making sure" you are sure your saved. A worthy goal, rarely ever done right, imo. Often, people end up feeling unsaved. Well, you will feel unsaved when you look to yourself, its a no brainer. But when we get others to look to Christ, what our salvation is based upon, it is a different story. It will be based upon the sure word of God, more sure than the universe itself. Staying firm till the end is to forever look to Christ for your salvation. KWIM?

So true...

Feelings by the way are very subjective and can lead one astray, especially when we have to face our "own ideas" about our relationship with Christ (without getting a clear understanding of scripture); what others are telling us to believe (without getting a clear understanding of scripture); facing the world's belief system (without getting a clear understanding of scripture); and Satan and his demons tempting us to doubt our salvation. All these factors we face each and everyday- unless we rely on Scripture and the Lord Jesus Christ we can easily fall to doubt and guilt (I am not talking about the guilt that is God-producing to repentance).

[RefinedbyFire]

So true...

Feelings by the way are very subjective and can lead one astray, especially when we have to face our "own ideas" about our relationship with Christ (without getting a clear understanding of scripture); what others are telling us to believe (without getting a clear understanding of scripture); facing the world's belief system (without getting a clear understanding of scripture); and Satan and his demons tempting us to doubt our salvation. All these factors we face each and everyday- unless we rely on Scripture and the Lord Jesus Christ we can easily fall to doubt and guilt (I am not talking about the guilt that is God-producing to repentance).

What is the clear, full understanding of Scripture, when we piece all the verses together, though? This "OSAS" debate goes on and on and on, around and around on a "hamster wheel" it seems, because there are enough verses that seem to support both sides of the arguement. I think whether you are on the "OSAS" side of the arguement, or on the other side, we need to give both sides grace & understanding, because it isn't necessarily the easiest subject to understand. Again, I lean on "OSAS" because I believe, looking at Scripture, that God has the power to not only give me salvation through Jesus, but keep my salvation in Him. To "keep my salvation", I mean God preserving me from A-to-Z, giving me faith, giving me His Spirit, teaching me His Word, giving me a heart attitude to obey Him and His Word, to love & forgive others, to listen and heed all His Words closely, and even re-capture me and forgive me (in grace) if I somehow became a "Lost Sheep" or "Lost Son." Yet, still, with believing "OSAS", do I think there will be no real serious consequences (or risks) getting laxidasical about my walk with Christ, starting to go my own way, sinning carelessly, and not taking His Words on forgiving others, and other Gospel truths He taught, seriously? No, I don't.

Again, I believe we need to give grace & understanding to people on both sides of the subject. I don't want to get into any divisive arguements, and I always want to encourage all my fellow believers in the truth. I just naturally have questions, though, sometimes... :)

[truthwarrior]

:hat Yes you are right about being gentle in our responses.

But I feel sadden for those who get caught in the trap of thinking they have not achieved enough because they are being taught by pastors who are teaching them that they need to do more. I was one of them and seriously doubted my faith- I now know that this was Satans way of discouraging me and keeping me from actively serving Christ and actively relying on Him to sanctify me in His own time and His own way. Once I let go of these false beliefs I have had more freedom- knowing that I had nothing and still have nothing to do with my salvation or growing in Him- except to have faith in Him to finish the work He started in me.

How can we say to the Lord I trust you for my salvation, but by the way I do not trust you to keep my salvation? Is He not able to both save and keep us secure?

I still doubt many times, but this is then the time to let it go and have faith.
I look at all the Old Testament saints and see their lives- far from perfect (David murdered, Jacob deceived, Ezekiel and Jeremiah suffered with depression, Moses disobeyed God) but they trusted in God and believed. This is what set them apart from the ones who worshiped God with their lips (perfection in their acts), but their hearts were far from God. It all has to do with the heart and what it worships.

[RefinedbyFire]

:hat Yes you are right about being gentle in our responses.

But I feel sadden for those who get caught in the trap of thinking they have not achieved enough because they are being taught by pastors who are teaching them that they need to do more. I was one of them and seriously doubted my faith- I now know that this was Satans way of discouraging me and keeping me from actively serving Christ and actively relying on Him to sanctify me in His own time and His own way. Once I let go of these false beliefs I have had more freedom- knowing that I had nothing and still have nothing to do with my salvation or growing in Him- except to have faith in Him to finish the work He started in me.

How can we say to the Lord I trust you for my salvation, but by the way I do not trust you to keep my salvation? Is He not able to both save and keep us secure?

I still doubt many times, but this is then the time to let it go and have faith.
I look at all the Old Testament saints and see their lives- far from perfect (David murdered, Jacob deceived, Ezekiel and Jeremiah suffered with depression, Moses disobeyed God) but they trusted in God and believed. This is what set them apart from the ones who worshiped God with their lips (perfection in their acts), but their hearts were far from God. It all has to do with the heart and what it worships.

Exactly... God is Spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and in truth! Yes, to truly "trust the Lord in all things" would involve, I would think, to trust Him to keep you secure in Him! The Bible shows He can and is able to keep us from stumbling and falling, as we abide in Him. Isn't it amazing how God made it so we don't have to "earn" our salvation? It is so freeing.... I'm glad God has brought you through all that. It is so easy to get a wrong "good works earns God's love & approval" mindset, if we are not careful. No, it is only through Christ alone, we are saved...

Great conversing with you... Later!