Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Weirdo4Christ]

Hmmm, so the gospel is rejected on the basis of mental understanding then? You have a mental understanding that Jesus really arose from the dead, and that Gods wrath and hell are the real consequence of rejecting that, and you simply reject your own understanding of these things?

[edit to add]I guess where I am headed with all of this....

Why didn't I reject it? Why didn't you? What was it that caused me to accept, what so many have rejected (supposing for the moment that they really do have an understanding of what it is they are rejecting, that is equal to the understanding I had of what I was accepting)?

No and that's NOT what I said. I said the Spirit speaks to your heart (tugs is the term i used) when the Gospel is presented. And God says his Spirit knocks on everyone's heart. Combined with the Good News AND the Holy Spirit this is what pushes us to make a decision. Some people come to the Lord quickly after hearing the Good news. Others take yeeeaaaars. And still others choose to reject God's gift.

[Saved by Grace_06]

Weirdo4Christ

Well I'm not a Calvinist or an Arminian but I do not believe God saves those whom he wills or chooses.

Well then, you're not reading scripture. And worst, you have a wrong view of God.

That is a twisting of scripture. Jesus died for all. He said so.

Where did Jesus say he died for all? I've only saw so far that he died for "many" in Matt 20:28, "the sheep" in John 10:15, "the Church" in Eph 5:25, etc. Can you please show me one scripture where Jesus himself claims to have died for everyone? Moreover, answer this question: Why does Jesus only pray for those the father gave him and not even else?

God is not a God of confusion. Satan is the god of confusion.

The "Confusion" card, as it seems to be, is the scapegoat for lazy Christians. If you're going to make a claim, do so using scripture and not heart.

God says this is the way to eternal life take it or leave it. Then the rest is up to the individual.

Who takes it but those whom God calls (1 Cor 1:23-24), those appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48), those the Father gave the Son, (John 17:2), etc, etc?

God knocks on everyone's heart.

Wrong. God does NOT knocking on the heart of the unregenerated, but the hearts of those who are his, namely his church. Read Rev. in context. The same Jesus who said, "behold I stand at the door and knock" is the same Jesus who taught that "only his sheep hears his voice."

Some do, then slam the door in God's face. Then there's those who say, yes Lord I believe and let Him inside.

Forgive me if I come off a bit brash. It is just my hopes that God's people would learn about him and not assume things just because they've been bought up to believe and see a certian thing a certain way. Allow the Bible to speak for itself and ask God for wisdom. The same God that saves you is pleased to give you understand and knowledge that you may know Him aright.

[Leialoha]

No and that's NOT what I said. I said the Spirit speaks to your heart (tugs is the term i used) when the Gospel is presented. And God says his Spirit knocks on everyone's heart. Combined with the Good News AND the Holy Spirit this is what pushes us to make a decision. Some people come to the Lord quickly after hearing the Good news. Others take yeeeaaaars. And still others choose to reject God's gift.

Do you have a verse to support that God's spirit knocks on everyone's heart?

"Behold I stand at the door and knock" in Revelation is a great verse, but has a different meaning than how many apply it.

[Weirdo4Christ]

What twisting of scripture? Not following what your referencing.

The "knock on the door" is not contextually talking about Jesus offering salvation. That verse has been misused. That doesn't mean that Jesus is or isn't knocking on everyone's heart, but different verses should be used to support that idea.

God does say Jesus is the way the truth or the life, but He no where says take it or leave it. If the rest is up to me, do you know what percent is God's doing toward salvation and what percent is human doing? Is it 50/50? Is it 90/10?

I believe that scripture through both old and new testament show that it is 100% God's doing.


Well I disagree. Then we are not saved by our choice. It's not our doing at all. So that makes scripture which is God's word a lie.


God offers his free gift. It is up to us to take it.


There's no percentages here. The Holy Spirit works on all men's hearts. Those were MY words take it or leave it. I never said he says that. It's the idea. And yes that IS the way it is. God has done His part. he said on the cross.."it is finished". The sacrifice was done. His resurrection made it possible for us to live again after death into eternity. His part was done.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:5-6)

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." MATTHEW 11:28

Behold the LAMB OF GOD, which TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD." (John 1:29).

"For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man CHRIST JESUS, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1Timothy 2:5-6).

2 Peter 3:9 says: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Scripture says that Christ died for "sinners" (1 Tim. 1:15; Rom. 5:6-8). The word "sinner" nowhere is limited to the elect or to the church. It is used exclusively in the Bible of lost humanity. Scripture tells us that Christ died for sinners, not penitent sinners, and for the ungodly, not for just some of them.

It is inaccurate to suggest that God gives men a special gift of faith so that they may be saved and subsequently sanctified. Instead, God has sent His Holy Spirit into the world to convict men of sin and to enlighten darkened and depraved minds to the saving truths contained in Scripture (John 16:8; Rom 10:17; Eph 3:9). When one is regenerated, it is because they have yielded to the filling ministry of the Holy Spirit, not infused faith, that results in good works. From Ephesians 2:8 and the collective whole of the New Testament, God is presented as the gracious initiator who, through His Holy Spirit, woos and wins men to Himself. Man is depicted as the responder who, in his spiritually destitute state, is convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and answers in simple faith to the promises of the Gospel. In view of such Grace, it is only fitting to contend that salvation is an expression of divine favor, yea, even a gift of God!

And I say unto you, ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." St. Luke 11:9

"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you." Luke 17:6


This process is supernatural. The faith seed that God has planted 'within all men" roots when they hear the Word.

Then they make their choice. When? Our timing is not His timing. If an individual has a heart that is more hard than his neighbor he will take longer to come to faith in Christ. Some people never come to Christ. Their hearts are hardened beyond saving.

God doesn't make a person wicked. - James 1:13-16

The person chooses to be wicked. But God may put him into situations that exposes his wickedness to all. - Pr. 21:1

Oh and since Jesus IS God anything God has said in the OT applies to Jesus. Jesus never came out and said homosexuality was wrong. But God did in the OT.

[Saved by Grace_06]

No and that's NOT what I said. I said the Spirit speaks to your heart (tugs is the term i used) when the Gospel is presented. And God says his Spirit knocks on everyone's heart. Combined with the Good News AND the Holy Spirit this is what pushes us to make a decision. Some people come to the Lord quickly after hearing the Good news. Others take yeeeaaaars. And still others choose to reject God's gift.

Can you support at least ONE verse that says that God knocks on every sinner's heart? The verse you qouted in the book of Rev., is addressed to the church. Dont believe me? Read in context - it says - "to the seven churches." Moreover, the same Jesus that said, "behold I stand at the door and knock" says that "ONLY his sheep hears his voice."

Do you think Jesus is talking to deaf people?

[Beth O]

I think you are making a simple gospel message all too confusing. Confusion comes from the devil. Christ died for all, we have to accept the gift. You cant accept the gift unless you believe. In believing, you acknowledge you are a sinner in need of a Saviour. Then you accept the gift of salvation. Nothing confusing about that.

Amen!! I use to be confused by Calvinism. Not anymore!

[LaMontre]

No and that's NOT what I said. I said the Spirit speaks to your heart (tugs is the term i used) when the Gospel is presented.

Yes, the Holy Spirit convinces the world os sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement. Of sin because they don't believe in Christ, of righteousness because Jesus (our righteousness) has gone to the Father, and of judgement because the prince of this world is judged.

I do not disagree that the mental understanding of the gospel, and the rejection of it are indeed what occurs in the unbeliever. Rather, I am wondering whether that is a basis upon which it also should be accepted.

Doesn't Paul tell us that the things of God cannot be known by the natural man, because they are spiritually discerned? One must be made alive to God first spiritually, in order to believe. He MUST be born again, or he cannot see.


And God says his Spirit knocks on everyone's heart. Combined with the Good News AND the Holy Spirit this is what pushes us to make a decision. Some people come to the Lord quickly after hearing the Good news. Others take yeeeaaaars. And still others choose to reject God's gift.

I don't disagree here either.

There is something which those who reject it must not have. Or perhaps it is the reverse? Those who reject it have something which those who accept it lack. That's my question, why is it that good trees cannot bear bad fruit, and bad trees cannot bear good fruit. Either MAKE the tree good, and it's fruit good, or MAKE the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt. There is no in between. There is no "potentially good" trees with "potentially good" fruit. It is one or the other.

And equally, what is the difference bween good ground and stoney ground?

Why was my ground good, and someone elses "stoney"?

Who clears away the stones before the seed is sown?

:idunno

[Saved by Grace_06]

Weirdo4Christ

Well I disagree. Then we are not saved by our choice. It's not our doing at all. So that makes scripture which is God's word a lie.

Someone is lying and it isnt God. Note John 1:12-13:

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

According that John's testimony, Christians are born again by God's choice.

There's no percentages here. The Holy Spirit works on all men's hearts.

PLEASE show this from scripture alone.

"And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven." - Mat 4:11-12

Did the Holy Spirit work on those people's heart? What about these folks here:

"I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. - Mat 11:25-26

Those were MY words take it or leave it.

Indeed, those are "your" words!

His resurrection made it possible for us to live again after death into eternity. His part was done.

Does Jesus die to merely "offer" salvation or to save? What does scripture say but..."She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." - Mat 1:21

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

And all those who hear are those "called out" (1 Cor 1:23-24), "those appointed to eternal life" (Acts 13:48), "the sheep" (John 10:15), "Those the Father gave the Son" (John 17:2), etc., etc. God uses means to bring about his ends. The means in which he uses to bring his elect to saving faith is the preaching of the gospel. When it goes out "his sheep will hear his voice."

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:5-6)

Finish the chapter:

Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. --Isa 53:10-12

Do you see now who the "all" is refering to? Namely, the "many" whom Jesus bore their iniquites and therefore made them righteous.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." MATTHEW 11:28

That's true! Whosoever may come! Yet again, who ever comes without being called? You must stop assuming that people actually want or even love God.

Behold the LAMB OF GOD, which TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD." (John 1:29).

Which meaning of world are you going to use? There are about 7 different meanings for "world" in the NT.

"For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man CHRIST JESUS, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1Timothy 2:5-6).

All of whom? All or "Pas" in the Greek could either mean: 1. All indivisually or 2 All collectively, ie. all kinds of people. Which does the context support best?

2 Peter 3:9 says: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Who are the "you" refering to? Go one verse back to find out (v8). Notice now that the "you" is teh "beloved." Verse 1 tells us that this is now the 2nd letter to the "beloved" or the "you" to whom the letter is written. So, you want to know who the "you" and "beloved" is? Go to 1 Peter 1:1 and see. Its written to God's elect. Thats only from the context I got that. We can go into the Greek where it would prove even more that you're reading that verse wrong. I'll stop here. The rest is only a reitteration of what has been said.

[Leialoha]

Well I disagree. Then we are not saved by our choice. It's not our doing at all. So that makes scripture which is God's word a lie.


God offers his free gift. It is up to us to take it.


There's no percentages here. The Holy Spirit works on all men's hearts. Those were MY words take it or leave it. I never said he says that. It's the idea. And yes that IS the way it is. God has done His part. he said on the cross.."it is finished". The sacrifice was done. His resurrection made it possible for us to live again after death into eternity. His part was done.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:5-6)

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." MATTHEW 11:28

Behold the LAMB OF GOD, which TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD." (John 1:29).

"For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man CHRIST JESUS, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1Timothy 2:5-6).

2 Peter 3:9 says: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Scripture says that Christ died for "sinners" (1 Tim. 1:15; Rom. 5:6-8). The word "sinner" nowhere is limited to the elect or to the church. It is used exclusively in the Bible of lost humanity. Scripture tells us that Christ died for sinners, not penitent sinners, and for the ungodly, not for just some of them.

It is inaccurate to suggest that God gives men a special gift of faith so that they may be saved and subsequently sanctified. Instead, God has sent His Holy Spirit into the world to convict men of sin and to enlighten darkened and depraved minds to the saving truths contained in Scripture (John 16:8; Rom 10:17; Eph 3:9). When one is regenerated, it is because they have yielded to the filling ministry of the Holy Spirit, not infused faith, that results in good works. From Ephesians 2:8 and the collective whole of the New Testament, God is presented as the gracious initiator who, through His Holy Spirit, woos and wins men to Himself. Man is depicted as the responder who, in his spiritually destitute state, is convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and answers in simple faith to the promises of the Gospel. In view of such Grace, it is only fitting to contend that salvation is an expression of divine favor, yea, even a gift of God!

And I say unto you, ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." St. Luke 11:9

"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you." Luke 17:6


This process is supernatural. The faith seed that God has planted 'within all men" roots when they hear the Word.

Then they make their choice. When? Our timing is not His timing. If an individual has a heart that is more hard than his neighbor he will take longer to come to faith in Christ. Some people never come to Christ. Their hearts are hardened beyond saving.

God doesn't make a person wicked. - James 1:13-16

The person chooses to be wicked. But God may put him into situations that exposes his wickedness to all. - Pr. 21:1

Oh and since Jesus IS God anything God has said in the OT applies to Jesus. Jesus never came out and said homosexuality was wrong. But God did in the OT.

I'm having a hard time following your responses to me.

I never said it was our doing at all :idunno

Also, if you want to use a verse our of context, I guess you can, but why would you want to? The knocking on the door verse is about the Church, not the entire human race. Read before and after the verses you mentioned.

What do you disagree with in my posts? I've really hardly written much that anyone could disagree with who believes in faith apart from works. :idunno

I'm not a five point calvinist, by the way so please don't read into my posts. Also, I am fine with not understanding the depths of God -- but I enjoy searching Him and praying to know Him more.

[Weirdo4Christ]

Can you support at least ONE verse that says that God knocks on every sinner's heart? The verse you qouted in the book of Rev., is addressed to the church. Dont believe me? Read in context - it says - "to the seven churches." Moreover, the same Jesus that said, "behold I stand at the door and knock" says that "ONLY his sheep hears his voice."

Do you think Jesus is talking to deaf people?


Hey deaf people can be saved too ya know.



Seriously though,

..."the gospel of Christ... is the power of God unto salvation" (Rom. 1:16).

Hebrews 4:12 says, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart"

We are commanded to pray for "all men," says I Timothy 2:1, and verses 3 and 4 tell us, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." We should pray for all men because God our Saviour "will have all men to be saved." So God would have all saved, but some will not be saved. So God's grace may he resisted.

I do not believe Christians always do right. We can't. We live in a fallen world. We don't get salvation by works and we cannot keep it by works. So our righteousness is the righteousness of Christ who died in our place, paid for all our sins, and gives us eternal life freely when we believe on Christ. So John 5:24 says plainly, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

So in John 10:27-29 Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

And Paul the apostle could say by infallible inspiration, "... for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (II Tim. 1:12).

John 10:27-29 is not saying that there are those chosen for salvation.

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” John 12:32