Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Beth O]

Everything you said there is true. But, you didnt answer the question. The question isn't whether or not the word has power to change us. Rather, the question is why are you changed, and an equally guilty and sinner who heard the same messages isn't? There MUST be something in you to make you better than they, for you were equally "dead in sins" as everyone else, but you somehow, in and of yourself made the right choice. How? Sorry about the ego thing!

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[Saved by Grace_06]

Quotes from SBG, I'll let everyone else decided if there is an ego problem.

So SBG is trying to help me out by teaching me? Funny I don't feel edified.





So because I disagree with you on this subject, I need to learn to fear God and have my understanding opened up? Is there any possibility at all that you might be misunderstanding scripture. Are you looking at who the audience is re: a particular passage?



If only we were all so enlightened! I'm constantly in learning mode. Some day I will have it all figured out! :yay

I think I need to learn tact? I didnt mean to sound boastful in anything I said, I was just trying to have you see that I used scripture to answer your questions, but most of you guys werent doing that. In fact, most of what I say go unanswered. That said however, I feel I may be a little over zealous. My over zealousness comes from a desire to see God's people knowing God and not just knowing about him. I fear that too many Christians (not even unsaved people) have a very small and very wrong view of God. Most people, especially in this country, have a view of God being like a grand father type figure or a Santa Clause in the sky, rather than the Almighty and Awesome Yahweh. One part of our purpose as God's people is to KNOW God. Yet again, because of bad theology and the shift from historical and orthodox Christianity, "many people perish for a lack of knowledge." Ultimately, I can be wrong in everything I said. But, how will you know unless you study to show yourself approved?

[Saved by Grace_06]

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Amen. But, you still have not answered the question. Let's say that there are two people, right? You: :hehee and another sinner: :hehee (Im using this icon to represent how we looked as sinners before being regenerated). Now, one day you both hear the gospel. Wait...lets back up. Remember, you are both equally "blind" to the truth, "deaf" to the truth, and dead in sins. Now, one day you both hear the gospel. How did you become a Christian :scripture and the other say unregenerated :hehee?

What did you do different?

[Beth O]

Jesus said in John 10:26..."but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock."

I think its the "because" here that explains why some won't believe. Only those given to Jesus by the Father will believe. I am thankful that I do not have that knowledge (who will or who won't).....so I will go on praying for the lost, expecting the Lord to save. ysic, DLee

ps. I'm not sure why people accuse those of us who believe in the sovereignty of God of not thinking we have to witness or work for the kingdom?...God has chose us to be His mouthpiece and His arms and legs - because, we are His body. We know for a fact that some will believe and some won't ----funny thing is that is exactly what the Arminians believe! Funny isn't it? Same results, but with one very important difference (God's Glory)

I believe in the Sovereignty of God. I am not an Arminian. I just want to know what the Word of God says on the subject. Always in learning mode! Just learned about Dispensations a couple days ago. Still working it out, although it has helped in rightly dividing the Word. Context, Context, Context. Who is the audience. What would you say if you realized that Paul was to preach a Gospel that was a mystery up until he started preaching it. (to the Gentiles) A Gospel received from our Risen Lord Jesus.


1 Corinthians 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:


Galatians 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The article below is for those that want to learn. Not the ones that have it all figured out! Does it make sense that in the gospel books and the beginning of Acts, that it was a transitional dispensation from Law to Grace? Read further and see. Someone else on RR posted this article just the other day. (Josh, I can't remember his user name). He actually admitted that he had some misunderstandings on doctrine because he did not have the context right. That's humility, not ego.

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/dispensa.html

[Beth O]

Amen. But, you still have not answered the question. Let's say that there are two people, right? You: :hehee and another sinner: :hehee (Im using this icon to represent how we looked as sinners before being regenerated). Now, one day you both hear the gospel. Wait...lets back up. Remember, you are both equally "blind" to the truth, "deaf" to the truth, and dead in sins. Now, one day you both hear the gospel. How did you become a Christian :scripture and the other say unregenerated :hehee?

What did you do different?

OK, I'll say it plainly. The Word of God didn't work for you? I will attempt to use my own words based on scripture.

One rejects the Word of God and the other doesn't. The Word of God softens the heart. God is long suffering but with some there will be a total hardening of the heart, due to their continual rejection of the Word of God.

I am answering all of your questions! You don't like my answers, so you keep asking over and over again. It's getting old!

[Beth O]

I think I need to learn tact? I didnt mean to sound boastful in anything I said, I was just trying to have you see that I used scripture to answer your questions, but most of you guys werent doing that. In fact, most of what I say go unanswered. That said however, I feel I may be a little over zealous. My over zealousness comes from a desire to see God's people knowing God and not just knowing about him. I fear that too many Christians (not even unsaved people) have a very small and very wrong view of God. Most people, especially in this country, have a view of God being like a grand father type figure or a Santa Clause in the sky, rather than the Almighty and Awesome Yahweh. One part of our purpose as God's people is to KNOW God. Yet again, because of bad theology and the shift from historical and orthodox Christianity, "many people perish for a lack of knowledge." Ultimately, I can be wrong in everything I said. But, how will you know unless you study to show yourself approved?

I think this is an apology, if so, you are forgiven, by me.

I'm looking through my posts and I believe I have been using scripture. I have studied this topic quite intensely. That is why I believe neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is the answer. The more I study the more I learn about Christian doctrine and realize I won't have all the answers until I will see His glorious face! I believe I have the essential Christian doctrine down and know I can not lose my salvation. I now move from milk to solid food.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

[Saved by Grace_06]

OK, I'll say it plainly. The Word of God didn't work for you? I will attempt to use my own words based on scripture.

One rejects the Word of God and the other doesn't. The Word of God softens the heart. God is long suffering but with some there will be a total hardening of the heart, due to their continual rejection of the Word of God.

I am answering all of your questions! You don't like my answers, so you keep asking over and over again. It's getting old!

First, a "not liked answer" is not the same as a "non answer." You've only given me non-answers so far. Second, what you said isn't scriptural. Though the word of God convicts the heart of truth, it does not soften it. Soft hearts dont lead to salvation - changed hearts do. Note Ezk. 36:36-37 for a clear picture of this. Third, I agree with you that when people hardened their hearts, they will not repent. But again, the issue is not that we need a "soft" heart, but instead a "new" one. We must have a nature change (heart in scripiture represents our nature). We must be "born again." And, we are born again first before we can even "see" God's Kingdom (Joh 3:3) or hear his truth (1Cor 2:14). Finally, tell me what you think about the following belief on my part: I believe the reason you have faith is because God elected you to salvation from before the foundations of the world. Therefore, like all the "called out ones" in 1 Cor 1:23-24, and "all those appointed to eternal life" in Acts 13:48, and "all those the Father gave to the Son" in John 17:2, and "all the sheep" in John 10:15, you believed. It was by grace you were saved, and NOT of anything you did. You are a recipient of God's grace - a vessel of mercy, as it were.

You should weep and stand in awe and praise and glory, in this!

[Saved by Grace_06]

I think this is an apology, if so, you are forgiven, by me.

I'm looking through my posts and I believe I have been using scripture. I have studied this topic quite intensely. That is why I believe neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is the answer. The more I study the more I learn about Christian doctrine and realize I won't have all the answers until I will see His glorious face! I believe I have the essential Christian doctrine down and know I can not lose my salvation. I now move from milk to solid food.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Thanks sis! :)

[Beth O]

First, a "not liked answer" is not the same as a "non answer." You've only given me non-answers so far. Second, what you said isn't scriptural. Though the word of God convicts the heart of truth, it does not soften it. Soft hearts dont lead to salvation - changed hearts do. Note Ezk. 36:36-37 for a clear picture of this. Third, I agree with you that when people hardened their hearts, they will not repent. But again, the issue is not that we need a "soft" heart, but instead a "new" one. We must have a nature change (heart in scripiture represents our nature). We must be "born again." And, we are born again first before we can even "see" God's Kingdom (Joh 3:3) or hear his truth (1Cor 2:14). Finally, tell me what you think about the following belief on my part: I believe the reason you have faith is because God elected you to salvation from before the foundations of the world. Therefore, like all the "called out ones" in 1 Cor 1:23-24, and "all those appointed to eternal life" in Acts 13:48, and "all those the Father gave to the Son" in John 17:2, and "all the sheep" in John 10:15, you believed. It was by grace you were saved, and NOT of anything you did. You are a recipient of God's grace - a vessel of mercy, as it were.

You should weep and stand in awe and praise and glory, in this!

First of all, what makes you think I didn't or don't weep and stand in awe and praise and glory of my Lord?

I believe it's the Word of God, (Jesus) that changes the heart!

I will try to make this quick re: election. long posts get to be a drag!


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


The Jews continued to reject Jesus. He says
John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.


John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

It is their lack of belief, not that they are not part of the elect. Or their lack of belief makes them not part of the elect. btw, I don't believe Faith is a work!!! Eph 2:8-9 tells me Faith is not a work.

There is just too much gymnastics that has to be done with verses such as:


1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Election has to do with the Church, the One True Church of which Jesus is the head. The Church is made up of all born again believers that our Sovereign God knew of from the beginning of time.


Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Acts 15:13-18 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

[Saved by Grace_06]

Beth O

First of all, what makes you think I didn't or don't weep and stand in awe and praise and glory of my Lord?

All Christians do. We know innately to love and worship God. How much and for what reasons, however is another story.

I believe it's the Word of God, (Jesus) that changes the heart!

I'll agree with this. The Bible is clear that is is GOD ALONE who changes our heart (Ezk 36:36-37). Notice all the "I will" statements. It is He [God] that does the work.

I will try to make this quick re: election. long posts get to be a drag!

It is their lack of belief, not that they are not part of the elect. Or their lack of belief makes them not part of the elect.

OK then...why are you saved. In your unregenerated state, you were just as unwilling to believe. Again, why are you saved? You didn't answer the question yet, even after I showed you from scripture why you believe, namely because you were "called out" to believe. I think you're missing the point to all of this. No one loves God. None seek God. Not want his will done, but their own. None want to deny self and follow Jesus, they want to do what they want. That's all of us apart from God's grace and apart from Christ. So then, why do you believe? I'll say again: We are not made sheep or elect because we believe, but we simply believe because we are elected to be sheep. Read Jesus' words in John 10:27. Please, just read it. Note he said in v26 "you 'do not believe' because you are not my sheep. Why don't some believe? Because they are not sheep. ONLY sheep believe and follow. Why? Because of grace!

btw, I don't believe Faith is a work!!! Eph 2:8-9 tells me Faith is not a work.

That's right, its a gift. An unmerited and undeserved gift that God gives to those he aims to save. "For by grace you have been saved!"

There is just too much gymnastics that has to be done with verses such as:

Not at all. I wish we all studied Bible history, Greek, and hermanutics. Only then we'd see the intended meaning to which the author meant. This however, is a topic for another time. Lets stick with the topic at hand. One thing at a time, OK? We'll get to Particular Redemption (Limited Atonement) later.

Election has to do with the Church, the One True Church of which Jesus is the head. The Church is made up of all born again believers.

That's right! What's the problem? All that said, can we please stay within the first arguments before moving on to other things. I asked you in the last post why you and other equally dead sinners have opposite reactions to the gospel - you believe and they dont. Why? You were both equally deaf and blind and equally dead in sins, but you did something to be saved. What was it? You said faith is not a work so what did you do? I showed why some people believe from scripture - namely, they were "called out" and "appointed to eternal life" "chosen to be a gift to the Son from the Father, etc. Can you show me from scripture why you believe salvation is of your own doing?