Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[HeIsEnough]

I dont know what you mean here.

Why would God give two wits about modern day Israel, in your theology?



The Bible is a "progressive revlatory" book.

Sounds much like Progressive Dispensation.



You should really study your theology.

Well friend, I have been. For approximately twenty years before you ever started. You keep assuming believers here don't know or have not studied Calvinism, Replacement Theology, Reformation Theology and any number of windy doctrines and systematic theologies that flow through this earth. I think its time for you to quit relying on your mere four years and start listening more better. Just a suggestion.



Dispensationalism is very new.

The substance of the teachings are not new, they are progressively revealed (just like you stated), AKA Progressive Dispensations.



[B]You have a point here. I'm really reconsidering my rapture views too. Im not so sure it is a pretrib anymore? As I said before, when I first came into the faith, I held the view which most of you here believe, pretrib, dispensational, etc. Alot of my views have changed now, however. I havent studied eschotology (endtimes) so I dont know whats the deal and what the Bible really means. Where prophecy used to occupy my time, a thirst for knowing God and not wasting my life, now abides. These new desires came when I learned about God's Attributes and Soverignty through reformed theology.

Well you'll probably like ole Hank Hannegraf then. :lol2

I too spent many years studying prophecy of many stripes, and focus upon those things which are practical, and lead to walking in love, in step with the Spirit. This board and the old board have many who are willing to test your new found prophetic understandings.

[Saved by Grace_06]

HeIsEnough

Why would God give two wits about modern day Israel, in your theology?

Because he has chosen to redeem a people from every tounge, nation, and tribe from out of the whole world (Rev 5:9), and he will not come back until all of them are saved (2Peter 3:9).

Sounds much like Progressive Dispensation.

I dont know what that is. The fact that the Bible is a progress reverlation is pretty much agreed on by all Chrisitans.

Well friend, I have been. For approximately twenty years before you ever started. You keep assuming believers here don't know or have not studied Calvinism, Replacement Theology, Reformation Theology and any number of windy doctrines and systematic theologies that flow through this earth. I think its time for you to quit relying on your mere four years and start listening more better. Just a suggestion.

I still dont believe you've actually "studied" any of the theologies you mentioned. You may have looked over them or loosly read up on them, but you couldnt have "studied" them. Im not making this claim because you dont agree with me, but because of what you're saying and been saying. You dont seem to even know what is what or what they teach or mean, etc. That said, how could you have been studing you own theology and not know that it is new?

The substance of the teachings are not new, they are progressively revealed (just like you stated), AKA Progressive Dispensations.

Can you go back more than 200 years to find today's dispensationlist theology? If so, please let me know.

Well you'll probably like ole Hank Hannegraf then. :lol2

I too spent many years studying prophecy of many stripes, and focus upon those things which are practical, and lead to walking in love, in step with the Spirit. This board and the old board have many who are willing to test your new found prophetic understandings.

OK. Hey, can we stick to the orignal topics please. I'm beginning to get lost in all the "extras."

[CelticMist]

SavedbyGrace... I've waited over two hours.. and nothing back.. I'm going to surf about.

[Saved by Grace_06]

SavedbyGrace... I've waited over two hours.. and nothing back.. I'm going to surf about.

U waited for me? Was there something you wanted me to do?

[CelticMist]

U waited for me? Was there something you wanted me to do?
Guess not... I've asked a question in here.. and you have yet answered. No biggy!!! Have a blessed evening!!!

[HeIsEnough]

HeIsEnough

Why would God give two wits about modern day Israel, in your theology?

Because he has chosen to redeem a people from every tounge, nation, and tribe from out of the whole world (Rev 5:9), and he will not come back until all of them are saved (2Peter 3:9).

Ah yes, your replacement theology shining through...you say you don't believe in RT, yet you sound exactly like they do. Oops! I'm sorry, I suppose I can't say that because you say I've never studied it. :lol2

Here, I'll give you a little of Calvin's take on the saints of old and God's people Israel...even as a whole, perhaps you agree with him. I actually have to hold my nose whenever I read the man anymore.



There are those who treat, the Jews as in the present day, so peculiarly favored by God, that they invest them with the halo of a special sanctity. Reverencing as Christians thought the designs of the Almighty in past ages, they entertain far too exalted ideas of the personal holiness of the agents by whom those designs were accomplished. Old Testament characters are too often treated as "saints," when they have few moral or religious qualities which entitle them to that sacred appellation. And regarding the people as a body, it is scarcely possible to find anywhere worse specimens of moral culture. If we estimate responsibility according to the amount of light and guidance and privilege, then, indeed, Tyre and Sidon were far less culpable than Hebron and Jerusalem. How opposite, for instance, is their history to what might have been expected from reading the book of Deuteronomy. Instead of binding their written law "as frontlets between their eyes," no ancient nation were so careless of its sacred books. The Hindus cling tenaciously to their shasters, while Israel utterly neglected their Mosaic code.

What a pontificating buffoon. No matter what one believes, to takes swipes at God's people like this is just utterly foolish. Don't fall into the same trap friend. You think because of a little bit of knowledge you can tear up the world. All I'm trying to do is give you a little balance.



I dont know what that is. The fact that the Bible is a progress reverlation is pretty much agreed on by all Chrisitans.

Didn't seem like you believed that a short while ago. Are you sure you know what that means?



I still dont believe you've actually "studied" any of the theologies you mentioned. You may have looked over them or loosly read up on them, but you couldnt have "studied" them. Im not making this claim because you dont agree with me, but because of what you're saying and been saying. You dont seem to even know what is what or what they teach or mean, etc. That said, how could you have been studing you own theology and not know that it is new?

Sure, call me a liar, I'm starting to not care what you say. You say you've been coming here looking for converts. What exactly are you converting born again christians to? I'll let you trip over your own words, and let you believe whatever lies you want.



Can you go back more than 200 years to find today's dispensationlist theology? If so, please let me know.

Since you aren't even sure what it is by your own words, I'm not sure I even want to answer.



OK. Hey, can we stick to the orignal topics please. I'm beginning to get lost in all the "extras."

It's because you have no rudder when it comes to prophecy, and you know it. But, I'll leave prophecy for you to study on your own.

[tekton]

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

2Sa 24:12 Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.

1Ch 21:11 So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spoke, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

[Saved by Grace_06]

HeIsEnough

Ah yes, your replacement theology shining through...you say you don't believe in RT, yet you sound exactly like they do. Oops! I'm sorry, I suppose I can't say that because you say I've never studied it. :lol2 Here, I'll give you a little of Calvin's take on the saints of old and God's people Israel...even as a whole, perhaps you agree with him. I actually have to hold my nose whenever I read the man anymore.

Replacement theology teaches that the church "replaced" Israel. Covenant theology teaches that the church and spiritual Israel is one and the same. There is no replacing of anything within convant theology. That said, I agree with Calvin. Question for you: Do you feel the Jews are better off with God than Gentiles?

What a pontificating buffoon. No matter what one believes, to takes swipes at God's people like this is just utterly foolish. Don't fall into the same trap friend. You think because of a little bit of knowledge you can tear up the world. All I'm trying to do is give you a little balance.

God's people are people who trust in Jesus as their Messiah/Christ (John 1:13). Everyone else belongs to the evil one (1 John 5:19). I think the problem you're having is that you do not differentiate between national Isreal (Everyone born Jewish) and Spiritual Israel (those counted in the promise). I just gave you two scriptures; one shows that ONLY those who trust in Jesus have a "right" to be called God's children, and the other saying Everyone else, namely those who do not trust in Jesus, are of the devil. The owness is now on you to prove your view that all Jews are God's people.

Sure, call me a liar, I'm starting to not care what you say. You say you've been coming here looking for converts. What exactly are you converting born again christians to? I'll let you trip over your own words, and let you believe whatever lies you want.

I didnt say I was coming here for converts. I said I dont want to covert Christians. That simply means I dont want to waste time trying to convice already saved people of certain truths, because they are saved already. Ulimtely, salvation is more important than correct doctrine. God saves people regardless of theology, so long as you repent and trust in the Savior.

It's because you have no rudder when it comes to prophecy, and you know it. But, I'll leave prophecy for you to study on your own.

You're right! 3 years ago I was so smart. I thought I knew it all concerning prophecy. Then I read the Bible and realized I knew nothing. Though I still like prophecy, other areas, such as witnessing, and personal holiness, as well as glorifying God, has taken up where prophecy used to rule. Here's a cool quote by Chargles Spurgeon:

“A man says to me, "Can you explain the seven trumpets of the Revelation?" No, but I can blow one in your ear, and warn you to escape from the wrath to come.”

I love it!

[Saved by Grace_06]

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Guys,

Again, we agree that we have to make a choice. The question we're asking is going much deeper than mere choice. The question where asking is "why?" Why do some God hating sinners make a decision for Christ? The following scripture may shed some light?

Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil. - Jer 13:23

So again, its not whether some made a choice. Rather, the question is "how" and "why" did some make the choice for God? We contend that it was by God's grace they did so, and we've given scripture to prove that repentence and faith were gifts of God given to those he desired to save.

You have yet to show that man, by his own will and voliation, made a choice for God, and made a choice to want salvation.

[HeIsEnough]

That said, I agree with Calvin.

<snip>

I think the problem you're having is that you do not differentiate between national Isreal (Everyone born Jewish) and Spiritual Israel (those counted in the promise). I just gave you two scriptures; one shows that ONLY those who trust in Jesus have a "right" to be called God's children, and the other saying Everyone else, namely those who do not trust in Jesus, are of the devil. The owness is now on you to prove your view that all Jews are God's people.


So you embrace Calvin's (and presumably Luther's et al...) rants against Israel then. Fine. It was never my point to prove anything other than you embracing their haughty words. If you pay careful attention to the scriptures, you will see that God never led the Apostles to do this, only those leaders who opposed Christ. To make sweeping generalizations like this is so foolish, I won't even debate it with you.

In terms of your assertions, there is no need. God says it throughout the old testament who His people are.....that gentiles are included makes God the owner of a big house. That "not all the Israelites accepted the good news" is for the God of Israel to deal with, not you to condemn them, and an ever-present problem to your theology.That they are back in the land irks you somehow, you should examine your own heart about that.



[COLOR="navy"]I didnt say I was coming here for converts. I said I dont want to covert Christians. That simply means I dont want to waste time trying to conviced already saved people of certain truths, because they are saved already. Ulimtely, salvation is more important than correct doctrine. God saves people regardless of theology, so long as you repent and trust in the Savior.

I'll repost to refresh your memory;


So Im just going to go back to :scripture and stop trying to convert Christians.

I do believe you are unclear of your purpose here. Nearly every single post you have relates to your pet doctrines. Surely, you are attempting to 'convert' believers into Calvin's teachings. In fact, I'm not sure you can see anything but through your 'doctrines' of election, as taught by mere men. As Christ forgave all those who were putting Him to death through their own ignorance :), so He forgives you and me I suppose.