Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[LaMontre]

Thanks Bro.

I wondered about that after I wrote it....one can only hold out hope. :lol2

I believe it is obvious as well.

:hat

:wave

[HeIsEnough]

Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.


I couldn't say blessed....but we do know this;



John 3:20

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Fear motivates us to do some strange things. Sometimes I wonder what people are actually 'offering' to the unsaved, fear or forgiveness. Fear can definitely work to our advantage, and it can also work against us, as the above scripture illustrates.

It is interesting to note just how persuasive Paul was...he tells (and showed) us he went to great extremes to somehow reconcile whomever was in his path to God. That he attempted to become as all things to all men, if that be an advantage, and I believe it was.

When he was on that road, and the Lord came to him, the only thing he offered was 'follow me', and he did.

[Saved by Grace_06]

Why? because they chose not to "love their lives unto death.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Which is it? You say we have to make a choice, and then you say God chooses for us and we can't choose own our own. Don't be double minded either we choose to believe God or God chooses us. You cant have it both ways.

Yes you can have it both ways - thats what I've been trying to show you. Here's the truth in short: God makes Adam and Eve. They were perfect. They had a "free" will. Notice the word "free." Their free wills were free to choose either the good or the bad. But, since their nature was wholly good, they were inclined by their good will to choose good, every time. After the fall however, Adam, though he still had a free will, his "will" was NO longer free. Now here is the part you must pay attention to because this is where you're getting confused. What is the diffrence between "free will" and "not having a will that is free?" A free will, as it was before the fall, was able to always choose Good because of man's good nature. After the fall, however, man's nature changed. He was NO Longer good, not even close. In fact, man's nature after the fall is sinful and evil. Man after the fall has a heart that is despretely wicked! Post fall man is not a sinner because he sinned, but that he simply sins because he IS a sinner. Thats who we are - that's how we were born. We were born sinners and grew in iniquity. Make sense so far?


Let's recap! Pre fall, man was good. He had a good nature, causing him to always choose good (free will). Post fall, man's nature is wicked and his will isnt free in the sense that he cannot choose good in the spirtual realm. Im not saying that he cannot do good or that he is bad as he can be, but that in the spiritual realm, concerning pleasing God, the natural man cannot. The man after the fall has a will that is in bondage to sin and therefore he always chooses that which is consistant to his nature, namely sin. Im repeating myself so you get this difference bewteen having a free will Vs having a will that is in bondage to sin. Get this so far?

So after the fall we have ALL men born in sin and is therefore enslaved to sin (John 8:34). They cannot understand the gospel since it is spiritual truth (1Cor 2:14), they cannot obey God's laws (Rom 8:7), especially the highest one that says to deny self and follow Jesus. The reason they cannot obey God's laws is that they do not want to, and htey do not want to because they hate God. This is ALL of us apart from Christ. We're born God haters and self worshipers. So how were saved? Read Eph 2:1-9. It was all of Grace. Because God foresaw that NONE would seek him (Rom 3:11), to choose Him, he choose a people out of the whole world to save to display his grace. The means God uses to bring his people to salvation is the preaching of the gospel.

When God's elect or sheep hear the truth, they will believe because God frees them from their slavery of sin - they very slavery that we loved because we loved sin and hated God. But God freed us, and in freeing us, we then offer ourselves freely to him" (Psa 110:3). So you see, it is not that God forced us, but that he showed us the truth, namely how we hated him, how have broken His laws, and how we deserve his holy wrath. We are NO different from other sinners, except for the fact that God has been pleased to give us eyes to see truth. For a man cannot even see the kindgom of God until he has been first born agian (John 3:3). We cannot even understand the gospel until God gives us ears (1Cor 2:14). We are saved by grace and not of oursleves. Whats the difference between those who choose Christ and those who dont? We were smater? No! We were less sinful and less dead in sins? Heck no! It is all of grace. If you understood this truth you'd glory in it instead of boasting in your own freewill.

[LaMontre]

Here's the truth in short: God makes Adam and Eve. They were perfect. They had a "free" will. Notice the word "free." Their free wills were free to choose either the good or the bad. But, since their nature was wholly good, they were inclined by their good will to choose good, every time.

It simplifies things to understand that, were this true of them, they would never have chosen to disobey God. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life are all evident in Eve's conversation with Satan. Yet God still called them a part of the "very good".

So the fall is simply a case of finally (inevitably) succumbing to human frailty.

Sin is not imputed where there is no law. So, where no law is broken, there is no sin, in spite of our human nature. Human nature is not sinful. Breaking the (revealed) law of God is. Just a minor point that needs clarification in these disussions.

Death reigned from Adam to Moses (and down to today) because of a lack of access to the tree of life.

[HeIsEnough]

[COLOR="Navy"]You're right! 3 years ago I was so smart. I thought I knew it all concerning prophecy. Then I read the Bible and realized I knew nothing. Though I still like prophecy, other areas, such as witnessing, and personal holiness, as well as glorifying God, has taken up where prophecy used to rule.

Here is a thread you should seriously look at and contemplate, dude.

Those Who Claim To Be Jews, But Are Not (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=3974)

[BlessedinHim]

Adam and Eve sinned against God before the fall, as it was the fall itself. You make no sense what soever of that statement about this one point.

Adam and Eve were sinless when they decided to Eat the Fruit, but the act itself was the first act of disobedience. and that is when sin entered the world.

I think you need to go to Jack Kelly and read what he has on his site, he even has a question answer place and he is very thorough in answering any question you have backing it up with scripture. Just click the link in my sig and it will take you there.

He has lots of info about the end times events and this site even subscribes to his teaching. Rapture Ready and Jack Kelly walk hand in hand.

I will be praying for you the opening of scripture.

When you are learning about scripture, you have to throw out the line and see what comes up in the Bible without hampering it with mans words and ideas. Be careful what you open your mind up to.

Start researching by words. get a big full concordance and pick out words that really interest you and then study it out to the end and then see what you walk away with. You will find it very eye opening.

I did that with fasting, it was very intersting what the bible had to say about that. It said some significant things about it, but never heard preached about. You should try it.

[LaMontre]

Adam and Eve sinned against God before the fall, as it was the fall itself. You make no sense what soever of that statement about this one point.

Adam and Eve were sinless when they decided to Eat the Fruit, but the act itself was the first act of disobedience. and that is when sin entered the world.

(I'll assume this is directed at me?? :idunno)

Then whats all this?

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It wasn't even Satan's temptation that caused the fall. The cause was resident inside her all the time.

If that isn't the stuff that 1 John says is "not of the Father, but of the world" I don't know what is. Now that in itself isn't sin, but acting on it in defiance of Gods revealed law is.

What makes no sense (IMO) is believing that "perfect people" can sin against God.

The answer from scripture is that they were created with the capacity to sin, and "sin" is simply to disobey Gods revealed law (as opposed to "sin" being some innate nature that was added at the fall).

They were innocent, but not perfect as you are defining it. Just as children are innocent, but not perfect. It was only the the ability to discern right and wrong for themselves which they lacked (which was a good thing). And that was simply because they had never exersized it before. Once they did, their innocence was lost.

[Beth O]

Here, I'll give you a little of Calvin's take on the saints of old and God's people Israel...even as a whole, perhaps you agree with him. I actually have to hold my nose whenever I read the man anymore.



What a pontificating buffoon. No matter what one believes, to takes swipes at God's people like this is just utterly foolish. Don't fall into the same trap friend. You think because of a little bit of knowledge you can tear up the world. All I'm trying to do is give you a little balance.


That quote from Calvin brought this passage to my mind.


Romans 11:18-21 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

We have been grafting in by God's Grace and Mercy! We should not now boast!! and put Israel down because of their unbelief. How pitiful!

[Beth O]

Why? because they chose not to "love their lives unto death.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Which is it? You say we have to make a choice, and then you say God chooses for us and we can't choose own our own. Don't be double minded either we choose to believe God or God chooses us. You cant have it both ways.

OK SBG this looks like an answer to why someone chooses to not receive Christ. They love their own lives unto death. I think this has already been said, but you are not accepting any answers. You just keep saying that no one is answering?

[BlessedinHim]

(I'll assume this is directed at me?? :idunno)

Then whats all this?

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It wasn't even Satan's temptation that caused the fall. The cause was resident inside her all the time.

If that isn't the stuff that 1 John says is "not of the Father, but of the world" I don't know what is. Now that in itself isn't sin, but acting on it in defiance of Gods revealed law is.

What makes no sense (IMO) is believing that "perfect people" can sin against God.

The answer from scripture is that they were created with the capacity to sin, and "sin" is simply to disobey Gods revealed law (as opposed to "sin" being some innate nature that was added at the fall).

They were innocent, but not perfect as you are defining it. Just as children are innocent, but not perfect. It was only the the ability to discern right and wrong for themselves which they lacked (which was a good thing). And that was simply because they had never exersized it before. Once they did, their innocence was lost.

It was not directed to you. I havent saw anything "bad" that you have posted so far. It was directed to saved by grace 06. I guess I should have made that clear, but I didnt. I apologize for the confusion.

But my point was that the fall occurred the moment they dis obeyed God. They only had one rule to keep. And our curiosity and wanting to test was our undoing. We would have done the same thing in their place.