Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Doxiemom]

Dear Hope, never be afraid of me. I will not poke fun at you, nor make belittling remarks about the Catholic Church. I hold no animosity towards my cradle faith. Any inadequeces found in me were entirely my own fault. No priest did that to me. I may not still hold as valid some of the theolgy you do, but I promise you I will never belittle you.

In the Book of Revelation, Jesus siad ( as I understand it) that there are many church types, and whereever you are, it is possible to be one of His. He may hold certain works against them in judement time, but they are His.

I am not fond of, nor will I ever be fond of, the extreme types. This is not personal towards anyone here, but there are what I have come to see as "heresy hunters"(non-catholic) and "rabid catholics". They are destructive to the work of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you all for your insights

[Abigail]

Doxiemom, it seems we have a lot in common. I'm also a "dachshund mom"; she's curled up in my desk chair with me as I'm typing this...it's her favorite spot. I too could have begun this thread. I'm also an ex-Catholic who has questioned whether I'm truly "born again."

I, too, agree that no one tied up in defiant, unrepentant sin can truly call themselves "saved." Personally, there are some people I haven't been able to forgive. This bothers me a lot, and has made me question whether I can be truly saved as a result. I am trying, and I hope the Lord will be patient with me.

With regard to the doctrine/denominational issue, I've come to appreciate that every one of them have errors, some more serious than others. I've been experiencing the same thing you have about discerning erroneous teachings in preachers/teachers I've previously enjoyed. However, every one of them is human and prone to error. I do think the best teachers are open to correction and are themselves "teachable." It's taken me several years to partially overcome my ignorance of the bible; despite 12 years of parochial school, I had huge gaps in my biblical understanding...I feel that I still do! Scripture is amazing; every time I look to it I learn something new or a new perspective. Was that your experience too? I think the more scripture one knows, the better one is able to independently spot apostacy for what it is, and will gain more and more confidence in doing so. But I don't think that if you are misled occasionally that your salvation or your Christianity is threatened.

By "imperfect faith" do you mean a lack of trust that He is in control of all aspects of your life? Or do you not understand certain aspects of His nature or teachings? I think if every Christian were completely honest, they'd admit to an imperfect "walk" with the Lord. I certainly am one. If perfection in this area was a requirement, no one could rightly call themselves a Christian!

So...you sound like you meet the definition of a Christian to me (although maybe not as mature in the faith as you'd like to be). I don't consider myself spiritually mature, either. I've had a lot of "catching up" to do with respect to my knowledge of the Word. But it seems that everyone agrees that a "baby Christian" is no less a true Christian than a longtime believer, so we should be good to go!

[kenod]

Every Christian has trouble being good ... even Paul (Romans 7:19).

When it comes to doctrinal differences, I sometimes wonder who is more at fault - those teachers who have an imperfect understanding of the Scriptures, or the heresy-hunters who find apostasy everywhere and condemn all those who do not see exactly what they see.

[Hope]

Hi Doxiemom, thanks for your kind words.

Kenod makes a really good point about the "heresy hunter" thing. It can sometimes lead to a hyper-critical spirit.

Hope

BTW, I love doggies too! I have got toooo many! Itsy-bitsy ones, great big ones, and of course medium sized as well. Then of course, there are the cats .... don't quite know how many of them I have!!

[FunMudder]

Every Christian has trouble being good ... even Paul (Romans 7:19).

When it comes to doctrinal differences, I sometimes wonder who is more at fault - those teachers who have an imperfect understanding of the Scriptures, or the heresy-hunters who find apostasy everywhere and condemn all those who do not see exactly what they see.

So what would you define as a heresy hunter?

Doctrines of men mean jack squat. It's about what the Bible actually says, not what a denomination puts more emphasis on. Right?

What is the difference between being a heresy hunter and a Berean?

Act 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Keep it in context by reading all of Acts 17.

We are told to search out the scriptures, to test everything our leaders say. These Bereans were checking up on Paul, and he called them more noble for not just taking his word on it, but searching the scriptures for themselves.

If they were noble in questioning Paul..PAUL! How is it heresy hunting to question the people preaching today?

[Biblenuggetlady]

Jude is a very important book and it is so timely for today. Jude, wanting to write about our common salvation, instead found it needful and necessary to warn people about the faith. Faith...not faith that brings one to salvation, "faith" as the whole word of God and His Truth.

He warns about the wolfs in sheeps clothing who would sneak into the church and deceive MANY. They would use the grace of God as a "covering" for sin, winking and nodding at sin. It is insideous, there IS black and white in God's Word, there is right and wrong, yet we increasingly see evil called good and good called evil...in the church, not just the world. Remember, He said a time would come that good would be called evil and evil good.

We live in those days folks. It is not that any defenders of the Word WANT to point out every flaw of "man"...all men sin and fall short of the glory of God...but there are fundemental truths that must be adhered to. The line between the world and the church has become so gray it is hard to tell the two apart.

I beg my brothers and sisters in Christ...BEG you, to pray for wisdom and discernment in these last days. Feed on the Word of God and do not be apathetic when it comes to "compromise". These days are spiritually discerned, please...this is such a burden on my heart...please pray for discernment and do not be deceived. The wolfs are in the church today and they are trying to destroy it by watering it down so it no longer has any savor.

Truly, there is not a hyper critical spirit, there is rather a spirit of apathy and apparent scaley eyes...a lukewarm church...I DO say this in love. I am so afraid for the church today and want to cry from the roof tops...be ready for spiritual battle, sharpen your swords, put on the full armor of God and fight the good fight...the church is under attack and so many don't realize they are surrounded by the enemy.

[Doxiemom]

The "imperfect faith" of a Christian is anthing contained therein, or missing thereof, according to the heresy hunter and the rabid catholic. Therby you are disqualified from being a true Christain. You are going to hell. They are almost so perfect that the Holy Spirit asks them for advice.

They both have caused me more tears than I thought possible to shed. Both kinds have told me I am going to hell. I shall meet both the Reverand Billy Graham and Mother Teresa there.

That is what I am talking about.

[Hope]

Hi Biblenugget lady,

There are black and white issues, especially with regard to moral issues, that are not hard to decipher and do not require a theological degree to interpret. And it is encumbant on ALL Christians to follow those moral precepts, without a doubt! We should correct our brothers and sisters if they have fallen into sin with love and respect. This is oh-so-very-true.

Heresy-hunting, however, is the determination that you are 100 percent correct on all "secondary" theological issues, and then finding the flaws in other's theology, to then correct their mal-theology, and then if that person refuses "correction" to treat them like they are "tax gatherers and sinners" whilst shaking the proverbial dust off the proverbial feet.

As an example, I am a baptized Catholic, who loves the Lord Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior, not Mary, not the saints, and yet there are many on this board that WILL NOT believe that, and they won't believe that no matter what I say because they have determined I have a different Jesus. Why? Because they cannot comprehend the Church's teachings, they don't accept it, and therefore it is wrong and I need to "get out of her". It is not enough that I love Jesus, that I have been baptized, that I desire to imitate Christ in every word, deed and thought (and not out of vain works, but strictly for the love of God). No, that is not enough. I must line my "theology" up with THEM (even though they differ widely) before I can safely be assured of my salvation.

This is theological nitpicking. What matters is that a person loves Christ, loves God and "imitates" Christ. That is what a Christian is.

Hope

BTW, we will be judged according to how we "love", the purity of that "love" and the scope of that "love," not by whether we pass a theological quiz, and know the difference between Arminianism, Calvinism, preterist, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, OSAS, to speak in tongues, or not to speak in tongues ..... AND have "picked wisely". All of these things are "clanging cymbols" because it is love that excels them all.

[FunMudder]

There is a huge difference between loving Christ

and Following Christ.

If you are determined to follow doctrines of men OVER the teachings of Christ and Gods word, then you have rejected Him for your own idea of wisdom. Be it the catholic man made heresies or the cultic demand one must speak in tongues to prove salvation, those things are not going to save you.

If you are not questioning fallible men, specifically the teachers and leaders of the flock, then you leave yourself wide open for deception. Even the most theologically sound men will be wrong every now and then, so it is prudent to search the scripture to see for yourself if what they say is true. If they are wrong, it's out of love that you show them the error so that they can see what they missed, or show you where you missed. Bereans are called heresy hunters because we put more faith in Gods word, than we do men just as sinful as ourselves.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

How will you know if a teacher is false? Do you really think satan was so ugly and loud that his lies and heresies were so easily spotted?

You can love Jesus all day long, but will you actually follow Him over the doctrines of the world? And how will you know the difference between the two?

I am greatful for my brothers and sisters in Christ that point out deceptions I did not pick up on. My ears are just as itchy as the next, and most lies don't challenge you to actually look into the word, because "it sounds about right". That is a dangerous attitude and a pervasive one in this age of 'touch not my anointed' and 'yall stop pickin on him cause he is a good man!'
If he is really such a good man, then he would WANT to know where his take on scripture does not line up with the rest of the Word. It's the ones full of pomposity and pride that declare themselves to be theologically perfect. Those are the ones most open to deceiving themselves, and then the people that look up to the pastors more than they look up the actual scriptures.

Heresy Hunter? If it means one who seeks out doctrines that are not of God and sounding the alarm for the rest of the flock, then sure. I'll take that title.
I freely admit that I don't even begin to know all the things I don't know. But one thing I DO know, is that all men are sinners, all men are fallible, and ALL things should be compared to scripture to see if they are true. Only Christ is infalible, and only Christ will I not question.

[Stinker]

Hi Biblenugget lady,

There are black and white issues, especially with regard to moral issues, that are not hard to decipher and do not require a theological degree to interpret. And it is encumbant on ALL Christians to follow those moral precepts, without a doubt! We should correct our brothers and sisters if they have fallen into sin with love and respect. This is oh-so-very-true.

Heresy-hunting, however, is the determination that you are 100 percent correct on all "secondary" theological issues, and then finding the flaws in other's theology, to then correct their mal-theology, and then if that person refuses "correction" to treat them like they are "tax gatherers and sinners" whilst shaking the proverbial dust off the proverbial feet.

As an example, I am a baptized Catholic, who loves the Lord Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior, not Mary, not the saints, and yet there are many on this board that WILL NOT believe that, and they won't believe that no matter what I say because they have determined I have a different Jesus. Why? Because they cannot comprehend the Church's teachings, they don't accept it, and therefore it is wrong and I need to "get out of her". It is not enough that I love Jesus, that I have been baptized, that I desire to imitate Christ in every word, deed and thought (and not out of vain works, but strictly for the love of God). No, that is not enough. I must line my "theology" up with THEM (even though they differ widely) before I can safely be assured of my salvation.

This is theological nitpicking. What matters is that a person loves Christ, loves God and "imitates" Christ. That is what a Christian is.

Hope

BTW, we will be judged according to how we "love", the purity of that "love" and the scope of that "love," not by whether we pass a theological quiz, and know the difference between Arminianism, Calvinism, preterist, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, OSAS, to speak in tongues, or not to speak in tongues ..... AND have "picked wisely". All of these things are "clanging cymbols" because it is love that excels them all.

"Do YOU LOVE ME? "yes Lord" Then feed my sheep.

Do YOU LOVE ME? YES Lord " Then FEED my sheep.

DO YOU LOVE ME? YES Lord, you KNOW that I Love you. Then feed my sheep.

Part of Loving Christ is helping our brothers and sisters stay away from hurt, and error, things that can inhibit them and hurt there relationship to our savior.

Of course we want to find out what is a true form of Christianity, for ourselves and for them.